Interested in talking about God or spirituality in a safe and open-minded forum, with people who are not afraid to contemplate others ideas.
Discussion is open at
Free Thinkers Interactive
http://mypage.direct.ca/p/patsyann/

Dear Richard,

Now that you have been forced to delete some posts yourself from your own forum, you would have realized how difficult it is to be a moderator. I would like to know what Sri Vinaire etc. would say about this volte-face. It no longer remains a 'Free Thinkers Forum' now.

Or else, consider the fact that with Freedom comes responsibility, and everything cannot be allowed. There is indeed something that is good, and something that is bad.

Personally, I am very disappointed to see the deletion of posts in your forum. I had hoped that you would remain steadfast on your resolve.

And lest this arouse amy suspicions, I clarify beforehand that I am not Narad.

Vishal

Vishal,

Let me answer for Richard, because I was instrumental in the decision to delete those posts.

In my opinion the deletion of some of the blatantly abusive (foul language) and openly insulting posts from Narad at the Free Thinkers Interactive is not a violation of the Free Thinking policy.

Insane ranting and raving (and I do mean INSANE) is NOT free thought. We kept those posts as long there was some hope that maybe there is some misunderstanding that could be straightened out. There was no fight and no quarrel. It was just a one way malicious attack from an insane mind and there was nothing we could do about it. We bent backwards to accomodate Narad but to no avail. When we finally realized that we were really dealing with a malicious attack from an insane mind, the decision was easy and swift.

That situation was very different than what you encountered in this Hindunet forum.

I don't really think that you impersonated as Narad, though I must admit that I was suspicious of that at first. It was because you could have a motive in forcing us to delete some of the posts on the Free Thinkers Forum so you could come back to us and say, "I told you so!"

But who ever Narad is, that person knows me from Hindunet, and he has quite a button on "Scientology" that sends him into insane rantings and ravings. He is not bothering me here because he knows he would be exposed right away on this forum.

I must say it was quite an experience. But, I am not quite sure if it is over yet.

There has been no change in the policy of the Free Thinkers Interactive forum. All free thoughts are allowed on the forum without any prejudice on the part of the moderator.

The only clarification is that the following items are not regarded as free thought, and are, therefore, not permitted:

1. Foul language (however skillfully disguised) if it's intent is to insult.

2. Abusive language.

3. Malicious attacks.


The Free Thinkers Forum is not prejudiced for or against any religion and/or philosophy. It expects the views to be exchanged in an environment of mutual respect.

All the same, you did have to modify the policy! While his methodology was abusive, I could not help notice that he did raise several questions on Scientology which you did not answer. Moreover, Sri Bethell has been stating that there is nothing good and nothing bad. And that 'good and bad lies in the beholder's mind' and so on.

Last week, when some software-hardware glitch led to automatic deletion of posts here, you stated that members should go there because no post will be deleted. All this should have been reflected in the forum too and the posts should not have been deleted. You could have edited Narad's post to delete the personal attack portions, retaining the doctrinal portions. Anyway, the hollowness of 'liberalism', 'total freedom' and 'complete relativism' is exposed. And it is also clear that it is easier to pontificate, and difficult to practice.

Did you inform Narad personally or did you post a warning before changing the policy or deleting his posts?

Similarly, please realize that this is a 'Hindu' forum and in addition to the the criteria mentioned by you above, we cannot allow anti-Hindu posts too. This is also an educational forum where the members primarily participate to learn and teach. Finally, this is the largest Hindu discussion forum on the web, and serves as a showcase to visitors who want to know more about our Dharma. I also suggest that you try to participate in some other lists on religion like RISA-L and HSC-L. They will, in-fact refuse to admit you. (No, I am not asking you to leave. I just want you to test how much freedom is allowed on other forums on religion).

I would like to know what Sri Murali Rao and Sri Bethell himself have to say on all this. And what does Narad himself feels on this issue.

Vishal

Vishal,

Now you are making me suspicious again. Were you really Narad?

It all seems to fit too well.

Let me repeat again. There has been no change in the policy of the Free Thinkers Interactive forum. All free thoughts are allowed on that forum without any prejudice on the part of the moderator.

The Free Thinkers Forum is not prejudiced for or against any religion and/or philosophy. It expects the views to be exchanged in an environment of mutual respect.

This Hindu Forum is certainly prejudiced in favor of an orthodox Hindu viewpoint, and is very intolerant of any criticism of itself. At one time Mr. Jha was loudly insisting that every Hindu must become intolerant in order to "defend" Hinduism.

The questions on Scientology are being answered and will be answered in the future as time permits. There are answers available on the net. There is loads of information at the following address.

Scientology Master Index

The trouble with Narad was that he was not interested in the answers. The same thing you can see in the attitude of some Hindus on this forum toward Arya Samaj.

The first 3 sentences of your post now violate the first and the 3rd criteria of the rules of the Free Thinkers forum. Infact, I would like to know if Sri Bethell would now delete posts on the Free Thinker's forum in which you have cast aspersions on me and have attributed possible motives to me on the basis of Narad's posts. And I would appreciate replies from Sri Bethell now, not from the Oracle of Delphi.

You have not answered all the questions in my post. And please reply to the objections of Narad (if they are not deleted yet) at the Free Thinker's forum. The moderator of the Free Thinker's forum might not be sensitive to attacks on himself, but he is certainly sensitive to attacks against his friends certainly.

I am surprised that you should still call others intolerant when your own conduct leaves much to be desired. You have fessed up your role in the deletion of Narad's posts by Sri Bethell. And Sri Jha infact is very open to criticism of Hinduism. Please read his recent posts. Au contraire, you are quite unresponsive when it comes to Scientology. So let us first see a defence of Scientology at the Free Thinkers forum and let Sri Narad's posts be restored. Also surpirising is the fact that in the past, you have sometimes objected to the removal of TrueHindu's/Ravana's posts, and yet have removed Narad's posts. Which of the two posted more objectionable messages is clear to all. However, you seem to impart a greater sanctity to Scientology than to Hinduism.

Despite your protestations, there is a clear and a resounding change in the policy of the Free Thinker's forum. You had stated earlier that 'No posts will be deleted'. Now you have led Sri Bethell to qualify such statements.

Whether Narad was open to answers or not is questionable, because he hardly got any answers from you!

Again, I would appreciate if Sri Bethell and Sri Rao speak up on this matter.

Vishal

I think I am getting more and more covinced now that you were behind this Narad ploy.

This is not an insult but the most likely assessment of this situation.

I had requested Richard earlier to delete my posts regarding you. But if you wish we can leave them there. That will provide you with further motive that you seem to be seeking.

I am sick to death of my time being wasted daily having to wade through pointless and irrelevant personal attacks and accusations on this forum - and now even on a thread devoted to different forum.

My dear friends, if you cannot live without wasting your time with such nonsense, at least let those of us who wish to discuss Hinduism in a friendly, civil, courteous and educational atmosphere be able to do so without wasting our time. Such personal attacks on individuals and their paths to the Divine, if they must be carried out, should be done so through personal email (or perhaps at the "free thinker's forum") and not on a forum like this.

Sri Sivadasa, I apologize for my mistake and terminate the discussion here. If it is OK with Sri Vinaire and Sri Bethell, I can go ahead and delete this thread all together.

I totally agree with Sri Sivadasa. This is not a discussion at all but an attack on Free Thinkers forum.

I don't want to waste my time defending the policies of The Free Thinkers forum. They are pretty clearly stated. They may not cover all aberrations, but the intention of those policies is very clear.

I would certainly prefer to terminate this thread.

Dear Sri Vishal, Sri Vinaire,

Boy, I thought I would keep out of this controversy but both of you have asked me to add a message. But let me first say that both of you are great human beings as you are. Personally I feel bickerings can never be avoided. Gentlemen, I love you both. I am saying this honestly. So whatever I have to say in this message will not diminish my love towards both of you.

In this particular matter I have to side with Vishal. Not even in my wildest imagination I suspected Vishal to pose as Narad. Vishal can never fit into that slimy category. No way, Vishal is too good a gentleman to behave in this fashion. Narad is someone else. I do not know who he is. But I wish he is exposed soon because now innocent participants are suspected. I hope Narad will expose himself for the benefit of everybody.

Vishal is correct in his messages above, I don't wish to repeat what he said in different words. In fact only a couple of days prior to all the deletions I had opposed Narad for being hostile towards Vinaire. He replied to one of my messages in his usual way. In fact Narad also made fun of me. Inspite of his swearings Narad seems to be an intelligent person. But he is wrong to call Vinaire all kinds of names by swearing in the internet. I certainly agree with Vinaire in this matter. Vinaire is a gentleman and should not be treated the way Narad did.

But I was surprised to see my message also having been deleted with Narad's. I agree with Vishal that narad's message should have been edited and not deleted wholesale so abrubtly. This goes against what Richard and Vinaire promised earlier. In this forum I would not like hostile messages towards me personally, to be deleted. Why should I care what others have to say about me? I love Jiten, Ashegan and Ramesh inspite of their funny messages towards me. I want this to be a forum with freedom and not restrictions. I only object to obscene messages towards other participants and towards Hinduism and its Gods and Godesses and Hindu culture.

Deletion and edition of messages, I leave to the moderators. It is not my business or concern. But here what Vishal is saying is that the moderators at Free Thinkers, promised one thing and delivered another. If what Narad is saying are lies as I believe, what is the need for wholesale deletions when only deletion of the swearings were required?
Where was the need to delete my message and Narad's response and my further response in one thread? This is totally wrong and goes against the basic right of freedom of speech. This kind of deletions makes me suspicious.

Also a few weeks ago when Vinaire said that everyone was welcome to post messages however "weird" they may be and I started posting messages, Richard told me go write a book and get myself more confused but never said anything to his "friends" even though they were posting confusing messages including himself (Richard). I am not saying that others should agree with what I have to say but I thought to myself "so much for free thinking". "Free thinking" I feel is only for the selected few over there.

I am sorry if I have offended anybody but I have to be honest in what I feel and I cannot take sides by compromising with what I feel. In this matter I feel Vishal is correct and I have said so but I do not hold any grudge towards anyone. I have myself behaved immaturely in the past, so I am not judging anybody but only telling what I feel in this matter because I have been asked to say so. I have done this honestly without any reservations. If I had felt Vinaire was right I would have said so. I have voiced my disapproval to Vishal also several times by siding with Vinaire in the past. So I am only going by the situation at hand and I love you both for what you are.

I know that I have upset Hariharan but I cannot please everybody.

sincerely,

Why should one be afraid of Truth? Truth can be both sweet and bitter. I say this thread NOT be deleted. Is there no respect for my voice of opinion? after all this thread was started by Free Thinkers. This is not an attack on them. These are facts and not fiction.

Krishna said of inaction and action, "action is better but do not become attached to your actions."
I acted and now I am beyond it, so be it.
Om allow allow allow OM

You are free to act as you wish, my friend.

Dear Murali,

Most of Narad's posts are still there on the Free Thinkers Forum. There is a large post from him on the thread "Scientology, Its general Background" which is very derogatory of Scientology. We didn't delete it.

So, the impression you seem to be conveying is not totally correct.

The posts that were deleted contained words like "assh*le" and were really abusive and malicious. They were repetitive like a broken record. I am sure you saw them.

This caused a big dilemma for Richard because his young children also read the forum. This kind of language was certainly not appropriate for them. So I stepped in to handle this situation.

Do you think I acted incorrectly?

Please keep in mind that Narad's viewpoint is still very much on the forum and his tirades against Scientology are not deleted.

Dearest Vinaire,

I condemn Narad for being so heartless and brutal towards you. He had no right to swear like that. I never believed a word he said about you. That is the reason I opposed him. It was incorrect on your part to have deleted even one of his messages. Only the swearings and insults towards you should have been deleted. You also deleted my message along with his and his reply and my counter reply. You should have edited my messages if you thought they were harmful in any way. Scientology is not going to disappear because of Narad. Nor will others take his rantings against you on face value. We will always regard you in the highest esteem for you courageous and intelligent messages. You yourself have time and again proved me wrong and so have others. This is a learning and humbling lesson for me. God only knows how many more mistakes I will make.

But no crime has been committed. So let us move on in good spirits. The past is dead.

Fondly

Sri Vishal: No need to apologize. Re-reading my post I find it was a little harsher than I had intended. I am glad to see that my point was taken. Please, no hard feelings.

Dear Murali: I am not upset with you. I am not sure exactly which of my messages you are referring to that makes you think I am upset with you, but I assure you there are no bad feelings between us.

Dear Murali,

We also deleted some other posts that were in response to Narad's malicious attacks and were not relevant at all to the discussion after Narad's posts were deleted.

If you think that a point relevant to the discussion that you made was deleted it would be an error on our part. Though I don't think such an error occured.

But, you are very welcome to make that point again without fear of any prejudice against you, because there is none, and there has never been any on the Free Thinkers Forum.

Dear Vinaire,

I wish the Free Thinkers Forum all the success. I guess a lot of internet browsers are unaware that your forum exists. It is my guess that the Hindu Universe Active is easily accessible under the section of spirituality and religion. If Free Thinkers is also included in that section I have a feeling a lot of interested people will be able to log on to it and participate freely in the discussions. I am sure you are working in that angle. I remember Vishal suggesting Yahoo for more hits. I think the Free Thinkers needs some advertising for people to be aware that your forum exists. Once that is taken care of there is no end to the possibilities.

Dear Hariharan,

I thought you would be upset with me because of my message after you had voiced your disapproval to Vishal. Let me assure you this is not a personal attack towards anybody at all but I am freely voicing my experiences with the forums I am involved with. Looking forward to more messages from you. As you understand this is kali yug and nobody is perfect as they were in satya yug.

I request Sri Vinaire not to write his (wrong) understanding of my messages as my statements. He says, "At one time Mr. Jha was loudly insisting that every Hindu must become intolerant in order to "defend" Hinduism." This only shows that he has completely failed to understand my messages. What I still believe is that Hindus can't, and must not, practice tolerace at their own expense. That is certainly not a suggestion for becoming intolerant.

I have always insisted that freedom of thought and expression is one of the biggest strength of Hinduism and we should do our best to further strengthen that. However, even common sense makes it clear that there can't be unconditional and unbounded freedom while one is subject to desh, kaal and paristhiti. Sri Vinaire and Sri Richard promised something contrary to this fundamental fact with their forums. What they are experiencing is the result of promising the impossible. It is sad that all Sri Vinaire could learn from this Narad episode is how to formulate conditions in one's favor. Personally, I am for allowing maximum freedom of expression, whether pleasant or not. At the same time, I must acknowledge that freedom comes with responsibility, there are limits of any freedom and the decisions on how much freedom can be allowed are often subjective.

Nobody is saying that Hindus should not act against suppression whether it comes from misguided followers of Christianity, Islam, or some other source.

The target of correction should be suppression. This does not mean that one should devote all one's energies to putting down other faiths.

My basic disagreement with Jha started on his intolerant response to the following article that I referenced about a year ago.

Respect the Religious Beliefs of Others.

I would like to know what Jha feels about it now.

Yes Vishal you are correct, we did fall short of our original objective.
You showed how, even the most allowing forum on the net can become subjective.
I think that it is worth mention the extremes that were necessary to prove this point.
Victory is yours.

We at FreeThinkers Interactive, after careful contemplation, have resolved this shortcoming by providing a room specifically for individuals who need to express them selves in an abusive manner.

Bring on your thoughts, bring on your protests, and bring on your love.
Free Thinkers Interactive
http://mypage.direct.ca/p/patsyann/

The wind may come along and blow down your house but it will not stop to hear your cries, it will move on to lift the wing of a bird as it brings food home to it's nest. It will move on to cool the brow of a man working hard in the field.

Be like the wind, Free.
Om Allow Allow Allow OM

Sri Vinaire, you have said many times, "nobody is saying that Hindus should not act against suppression", but you totally ignore that nobody is saying that Hindus should become indiscriminately intolerant.

To respect means (1) to consider worthy of high regard (2) to refrain from interfering with. I can't consider something worthy of high regard simply because it is a religious belief. However, I can refrain from interfering with others' religious beliefs if others don't interfere with mine.

Your article says, "Religious tolerance does not mean one cannot express his own beliefs. It does mean that seeking to undermine or attack religious faith and beliefs of another has always been a short road to trouble." The problem is that when religious beliefs are contradictory, the very expression of one's religious belief amounts to an attack on religious beliefs of another. However, the fact remains that I don't SEEK to undermine others' faith, I simply express mine. Sri Vinaire, you continuously post messages that undermine religious beliefs of every religion, except Scientology. But you would say that you are simply expressing your experiences and beliefs. The moment others do the same, you call them intolerant. What kind of tolerance principle is that?

You say. "nobody is saying that Hindus should not act against suppression" but you don't stop there. You want to define for others what is suppression and when others are entitled to feel suppressed. I beg to differ from your definitions because I can see and feel when I am being suppressed.

Mr. Jha,

What you write above about yourself does not agree with your actions in the past on this forum.

Suppression is an interesting subject. It requires its own topic of discussion. I shall start it at the Free Thinkers Forum at appropriate time.

You may start that discussion on this forum if you wish and I shall participate if you don't mind me quoting data from Scientology.