namaste...
this post isn't meant to further agravate arya-sanatana relations.. in fact i hope will help them..

on a previous thread, i challenged murali ji to defend his religion from a jnan perspective against bhai ramesh's attacks.. i'd like to comment on some of the issues my fellow arya picked on and give a somewhat deeper analysis..

take the example ramesh used of sipping unclean water as teertam.. sri murali defended it by saying the devotees that did so, did it with bhakt and prem, and faith in its good effects..

now this is were aryas and sanatanas diverge.. arya samaj since its inception has never supported 'blind faith' in anything simply because someone has said it to be so or it is reputed to be so... the arya response to sri murali would be that sipping contaminated water and believing that it is beneficial without constructive thinking does not create the functional intellect that is essential for spiritual growth...

the devotee may sip the water with firm belief, but he should question himself.. will this filthy water really do me any good? should i rather dip my palms into my own resources to help those less fortunate than myself, and sip a little truth and non-hatred instead of this water?... on what authority is this water declared teertam?... is it not a greater thing to perform an act that will visibly (surely) benefit myself and others around me?

i realise that the individual has an innate love for ritualism (i think inside we all do), and by sipping the water as teertam the well-meaning devotee intends for it to link him with something greater and help him healthwise etc.. but devoid of sound rational thinking such an act cannot benefit anyone.. it is self-enquiry and introspection that will lead someone to communion with that which we cannot understand, and rituals are there to give us that little shove towards that goal.. but when one stops at the gross ritual, and does not ponder the wisdom of an action, the entire essence of self-improvement is lost...

similarly when pilgrims assemble brimming with moving bhakt on the shores of the ganga, how many think to themselves -
will bathing in water full of excrement and bacteria really wash away my sins?

will almighty rudr, who is impartial in the swift meting out of his divine justice, really stall this punishment that i deserve merely coz i bathed in the ganga?
is god not niyaayakaari - immovable in the dispensation of justice with all his truth and knowledge? can karma ever be erased until i have paid for it?

was our beloved rishi vasisht wrong when he said neither in the bowels of the earth or in the middle of the seas can a man ever escape the fruits of his deeds?

human beings are the heighest of the almighty's creations... we have a buddhi, an intellect to question and seek answers.. one does not have to be a wandering sanyasi to appreciate a deeper level of religion... the truth is that many devotees though having good intentions (but often selfish - god, ayur dehi, danam dehi etc.) don't go that essential step beyond the crusty traditional perfunctory act, and to use the buddhi..

think of the european people.. now, i'm not at all suggesting that we have alot to learn from them or that we must now leave our ways and emulate them.. on the level of philosophy and religion we have nothing to acquire from the west... but notice that more than any other nation, they have made the greatest progress in the secular/scientific fields... hindus with our vast system of knowledge would have been leading the modern world if it wasn't for the degradation of the religion of the vedas, which taught rational thinking and intelligent enquiry...

the same applies to the puraans... some hindus got offended when ramesh critisized the image of ganesh... the vedic way of taking that argument would be to ask oneself - what do i understand by 'ganesh'? does it not describe the almighty himself? does gana + isha not signify the 'lord of hosts' - ie. the lord of the material and spiritual world, which he alone protects and shields from harm? so should i feel offended or ruffled in my beliefs if someone passes a comment on an elephant defecating?

that is the vedic interpretation of the situation.. i can understand that the puranic who believes that ganesh means a stout, elephant-headed being who takes care of good luck, would be mad... but which is the more sensible way of taking the comment?

the puraans are full of imaginative iconography and very colourful figures and tales of the supernatural (and unnatural)... if one wishes to go into the puraans and come out benefiting then one must be armed with sound vivek and a discerning mind to sift truth from falsehood...
and then there is the easy route that aryas take, which is going straight back to the source (vedas), which already contains every moral of every parable...

the puranic hindu is free to read and appreciate his scriptures.. no arya can take away the genuine reverence that he holds for the texts.. but he must be prepared for all the unnatural exaggerations, the sleaze and the sex that ramesh lambastes...
therefore it is encumbent on hindus of whatever personal leaning to make use of those mighty texts, the ved, and develope a discriminating intellect fired with vedic truth, that we may all be able to milk the nectar from the poison...

sadly, ever since the war of the mahabharat, study and accurate comprehension of the ved has been on the decline... as true religion began to decay, and the once-mighty aryan empire began to crumble through corruption and loss of ved jnan, brahmins anxious that the ved never die out memorised by rote the body of shruti without studying chaandas and the proper meanings, and compiled the puraans to sustain interest in religion...

the books of the puraan though interspersed with good vedic teaching, contained many intriguing, mystical (and highly exaggerated) stories so as to capture the interest of the listener and sustain belief in something 'other', in the puranic case, the many devtas with their families and dwellings etc... it codified for them at least a little bit of the huge vedic lore and as long as people were learning good morals (from the 'demons' as well as the 'gods'), why worry to reintroduced the arduous ved dharma with its tirades of self-enquiry, rational, scientific thinking and above all, its shunning of blind faith...
blind faith was something the now-hereditary line of brahmins depended on.. it secured their divine place in the social ladder and kept the rabble in place... also by claiming different forms and qualities of the now many devtas, they created long-lasting sectarian lines dedicated to particular forms of the growing heirarchy...

but now the spirit of the vedas has reawakened and the nividaa, the holy speech is opened for all... we as thinking individuals can finally again understand and appreciate what the almighty intended for his children - a critical, intelligent buddhi filled with love and devotion to him...

vijnan and vivek should always go hand in hand with shraddha (that is where the west has failed)... let us use the true ved jnan that for over a century has been blazing before us (thanks to a certain reformer who shall remain nameless), waiting for study and contemplation of its real message...

aryas and sanatanas need not be hostile at all.. we have much to learn from each other, and i'll admit that the arya side has sometimes been a little presumptious and 'holier-than-thou' on this forum... i would be happy if we could begin on a clean slate and work towards reconciliation by emphasizing what we share before what makes us different...

pyar bhar ashirwad aur sadar namaste

The above post from Ashegan is an excellent one. There is nothing wrong in having a form. But to stop at the form and not to look beyond is the hallmark of ignorance.

No Prema can justify it.

Shree Rama,
Ashegan, the whole idea of God is also an idea based on faith. God cannot be reasoned about, God cannot be touched or smelt or seen or heard or tasted. God eludes all of our senses, God can only be experienced. In other words, one must have faith in the vedas to show the way to God. Essentially this is blind faith in God and the vedas, almost the same blind faith that one has when drinking teertam. Drinking of teertam is something that to the devotee is transcending the material and entering the spiritual. To the devotee it is no longer just dirty water but is spiritual water blessed by the Supreme. The same ideal applies to the Ganga, the ganga is a spiritual river despite its relative material filth it possesses spiritual power.
Yes, one must possess a questioning mind and willing to look upon something with scrutiny but regardless of that what it comes down to is faith, faith in a scripture, faith in a Supreme Being, faith in a process (either scientific or vedic)or just simple faith. Everything that we reason out is a justification for our faith. Some of the justifications can be logically or sound while others can be illogical and extreme.
The western world has made their leaps and bounds in the scientific field due to the information that the "hindus" have gathered. The concept of zero which comes from us, algebra, geometry, study of the human body, ayurveda, astrology, astronomy and many more. If one really looks at the puranas without any prejudices, one will see the level of scientific thought in it. The puranas as they exist now are corrupted to some extent, this must be changed the corruption or interpolations in the scriptures must be found and removed. The puranas speak about vimanas or spaceships or airplanes, cloning, weapons comparable to nuclear weapons, cosmology and many more things. Here is something to think about, many of the morals we hold now are not the morals given to us by our ancestors. We have been socialized by the western mind to accept these values, like the idea of sex as a bad thing or worship of the divine through images, and if one wants to go even to a natural level the idea of monogamy is not present in nature in other words the idea of staying with one spouse goes against nature so according to "vedic" logic should we deviate from this?
that is my two cents for now
-Mukunda
Shree Rama
Shree Ramanujaya Namah

"By Faith is the holy fire kindled, through Faith is oblation offered up.
We celebrate with praises Faith upon the height of happiness.
Bless thou the man who gives, O Faith; Faith, bless the man who fain would give.
Bless thou the liberal worshippers: bless thou the word that I have said.
Even as the learned ones maintained Faith in the almighty God,
So make this uttered wish of mine true for the liberal worshippers.
Guarded by the all-powerful God, the learned and men who perform good deeds draw near to Faith.
Man winneth Faith by yearnings of the heart, and opulence by Faith.
Faith in the early morning, Faith at noonday will we invocate,
Faith at the setting of the Sun. O Faith, endow us with firm belief."

rigved 10.91

sri mukunda might take this to mean the almighty advocating blind faith in his word, and then it's blind faith too, to assume the veda is his word...

but this is an issue aryas are seemingly secure in... to discover true faith one must combine the four types of vedic reasoning, the coherence with what we do know as sentient beings (natural law) and compare that with other claimed sources (other scriptures)...
eg. when judeao-christian scriptures claim one man and one woman were created in the beginning leading to incest, the vedas tell us thousands of souls took birth...

while the bible says the world was created in six days, the vedas describe creation as a process taking eons of developement...
the western universe is created out of nothing, which is illogical (as the gita also tells us: something can never be nothing, and nothing can ever be something), the vedic world is shaped from pre-existing matter - prakriti...

the vedas alone among all the holy books of the world, stand even under the greatest scrutiny, as they oppose no laws of nature, and reason, individual conscience, laws of direct cognisance etc... whatever is written in the vedas has never been disproved by logic or rational argument... it is the ultimate theistic science that the western world is only now beginning to appreciate...

the satyarth prakash gives an excellent summary of the evidence behind the divine revelation of the vedas (chap VII) that i'm sure all hindus can agree with... i'll try to post the relating paragraphs later...

also, i once read in a truly edifying book by sri ganga prasad ('the fountainhead of religion'), that according to reason and logical thought, there has never been a really original belief in the history of humankind.. everything has been passed down in some form or the other from an earlier time, and though the essential truth takes various forms in various places and times, the central idea is that it all points to a common source...

the vedas are the oldest books of humanity.. that is undisputed... while aryas maintain they were revealed at the dawn of creation (as the almighty is just and wishes all from the beginning to have the benefit of the vedas, unlike the quran etc.), modern scholars are pushing back the supposed date of the vedas further and further... showing them to be undeniably the fountainhead of religion, diffusing the great truth of godhead to the younger faiths of christianity and islam through judaism, which it influenced in the form of zoroastrianism.. and the origin of buddhism and jainism etc. is already known and need not be further explained...

what i'm trying to get to is that the one gift the almighty has given us is our individual sense of conscience, reason and logical thinking... that is what seperates us from the animal kingdom.. and if you feel that these god-given forms of cognition are not reliable, then i guess you'll live a life without belief in anything...

the universe is real.. the order that is so blaringly obvious in it points to a higher intelligence.. athiests believe the world exists merely as a mistake or coincidence or whatever, but is this a sensible argument at all? nothing can be done to help the willingly blind... if the universe with all its intricate processes and systems, the human body and mind in its amazing precision and ability and all the moral urges we feel every day of our lives is some cosmic accident, i don't think there'd be a point to life...

you say the huge steps taken by the western world is due to the knowledge garnered by hindus... i'm not in argument with that.. the pillars on which western science stand are chisseled by brown hands, egyptian, persian, arab and hindu study and observation.. as i've said all knowledge is passed down from an earlier source.. our great mathematicians and scholars laid down the principles like the zero and the decimal system and well as making the greatest advances in medical science, because of the questioning vedic intellect that was so alive and vital in ancient times... arya bhatta said that the earth rotated on an axis in its orbit around the sun... he didn't care that the priests of his time stood on temple steps preaching that the earth was supported on elephants standing on a turtle lying on a snake in a huge sea and that the sun was a golden chariot drawn by a seven-headed horse... he had a vedic intellect and that is what we are proud of...

the point of my argument was that if the vedic faith was reawakened sooner in bharat, the investigative, questioning attitude of our ancestors would be alive and india would be on the vanguard of global progress.. but it isn't.. the flying machines and clones in your puraans never came to be... and why is that? where are the fantastic inventions that your ancestors whizzed around in?
i'm not mocking what you believe is your gem-studded history.. if you get a kick from the great leaps made by our forbears, then so be it, but should we just be content with that? that we had a shining past? why are we not the proverbial top dogs of the present? why, when great aryan doctors like sushrut and charaka removed cataracts and performed plastic surgery in the distant past, were hindus no more than a hundred years ago and some even today huddling around tranced healers and sacrificing chickens to secure health for the afflicted?

we are all subject to natural law, dvipade and chatushpade, but we are blessed with vedic jnan.. therefore its alarming that you suggest we take up the practise of animals and mate with every dreamy female that walks by... we are higher beings than animals - do you accept that? we have the faculty of reason and a heightened morality... if you wish to return to your 'natural' state, then forfeit all the comfort and order of human life and return to the savagery of the untamed world...
the almighty has given us guidance and assurance in the law of rta that we may live progressive, moral lives and seek to uplift (drmha) ourselves from the darkness that surrounds us.. to learn the ways of nature and use them for the benefit of all is what human beings are capable of... we would not have been given these capabilities and moral aptitudes if our creator did not wish for us to make use of them...

at the end of the day, it all comes to faith, as you say... but not all faith is blind faith.. faith in something that satisfies all the moral and logical codes that we are able to comprehend is justified faith, and that is an inspiration to us all, that beyond the mechanical clutches of human understanding, there lies something far greater and everlasting...

(ps: vinaire, thanks for the acknowledgement but i wasn't condoning image worship or making forms of the almighty)

"Biblical Revelation vs True Revelation

1.Revealed over a period of 4000 years
(millions deprived)
Vedic- Revealed (entirety) in the very beginning(none deprived)

2. World created in 7 days-(limited process)
Vedic-slow and gradual creation- (unlimited in process)

3.Created from nothing - (God is a Magician)
Vedic-Created from eternal matter- (something can never be nothing)

4.1 man & woman created - (leading to incest)
Vedic-Thousands created at one time (avoiding incest)

5.Dust - cause of body - (inconsistent to his law)
Vedic-Reproductive element the cause -(consistent- beginning to end)

6. Historical references - (non-eternal revelation
Vedic- No historical references-(eternal revelation)

7. No age of creation - (fictitious)
Vedic- Given age of creation -(1,960,853,099 yrs)

8. language? - (partiality of God)
Vedic- Sanskrit/not a spoken language -(Impartiality of God)

9. Mediators - (contraditions)
Vedic- no mediators (no contradictions)"

from the 'dogmas' board @:
http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb130123&MyNum=942363513&P=No&TL=942363513

"Why did He reveal the Veda in Sanskrit instead of in the language of some particular country?

A.~ Had He revealed the Veda in the language of some particular country, He would have been partial to that country, because it would have been easier for the people of that country to learn and teach the Veda than for the foreigners, therefore, it is that He did it in Sanskrit that belongs to no country, and is the mother of all other languages. Just as He has ordained the material creation such as the earth, etc., which is also the source of all the useful arts, for the equal good of all, so should the language of the Divine revelation be accessible to all countries and nations with the same amount of labour. Hence the revelation of the Veda in Sanskrit does not make God partial to any nation.

Q.What evidence have you to prove that the Veda in Sanskrit is of Divine origin and not the work of man?

The book in which God is described as He is, viz., Holy, Omniscient, Pure in nature, character and attributes, Just, Merciful, etc., and in which nothing is said that is opposed to the laws of nature, reason, the evidence of direct cognizance, etc., the teachings of the highly learned altruistic teachers of humanity (A'ptas), and the intuition of pure souls, and in which the laws, nature, and properties of matter and the soul are propounded as they are to be inferred from the order of nature as fixed by God, is the book of Divine revelation. Now the Vedas alone fulfil all the above conditions, hence they are the revealed books and not books, like the Bible and the Q'uran which we shall discuss fully in the thirteenth and fourteenth chapters (of this book) respectively.

PAGE 238

Q.There is no necessity for the Veda to be revealed by God. Men can by themselves by degrees augment their knowledge and thereafter make books as well.

A.- No, they cannot do that, because there can be no effect without a cause. Look at savages such as the Bhils. Do they ever become enlightened by themselves without being instructed by others? The same is true of men in civilized communities, they need to be taught before they become educated. Similarly, had not God instructed the primitive sages in the knowledge of the Veda and had not they in their turn taught other men, all men would have remained ignorant. If a child were kept in a sequestered place from its very birth with no other company but that of illiterate persons or animals, on attaining maturity he would be no better than one of his company.

Take for example the case of Egypt, Greece, or the Continent of Europe. The people of all these countries were without a trace of learning before the spread of knowledge from India. In the same way before Columbus and other Europeans went to America, the natives had been without any learning for hundreds and thousands of years. Now some of them have become enlightened after receiving education from the Europeans. Similarly, in the beginning of the world men received knowledge from God and since then there have been various learned men in different periods, Says Patanjali in his Yoga Shastra.

"As in the present time we become enlightened only after being taught by our teachers, so were in the beginning of the world, Agni and the other three Rishis (sages), taught by the greatest of all teachers - God." YOGA SHASTRA SAMADHI, 26. His knowledge is eternal. He is quite unlike the human soul that becomes devoid of consciousness in profound sleep and during the period of dissolution. It is certain, therefore, that no effect can be produced without a cause."

from satyarth prakash - chap VII

Puranas are more poetic and full of personifications.For example the Sun God is believed to be riding on a charriot drawn by seven horses.Modern Science knows white light of Sun comprises of seven different colors.A careful study of Puranas without any prejudices or pre-conceived notions will definitely yield lot of Truth consistent with Vedas.Infact according to the Hindu belief it was Vedavyasa only who seggregated the Veda into four divisions and also composed puranas.

Ashegan wrote:

"at the end of the day, it all comes to faith, as you say... but not all faith is blind faith.. faith in something that satisfies all the moral and logical codes that we are able to comprehend is justified faith, and that is an inspiration to us all, that beyond the mechanical clutches of human understanding, there lies something far greater and everlasting..."

This is most beautiful, as the rest of Ashegan's post. Please continue!

Dear Ashegan,

My comment, "There is nothing wrong in having a form. But to stop at the form and not to look beyond is the hallmark of ignorance" was simply a comment in agreement with what you were saying.

Ashegan,

The way the word "God" reads from your subsequent post it appears that "God" was a Being (or, beings that were more evolved than Man).

It seems to be a concept different from the concept of Brahmam.

Vinaire,

If god is both nirguna and saguna, is god not also both being and non-being? You are correct that stopping at form is the hallmark of ignorance. But if one, thus looking beyond, should then not see any value in form, would this not also be the hallmark of ignorance? (or perhaps, having more understanding by having looked beyond, arrogance rather than ignorance).

By the way, it is good to see you posting here again.

The aryas(???)are going about saying that their method is the only correct approach. This is not true. There are many roads to "Truth". Theirs is one among the many. To belittle the methods of others is arrogant and devoid of love and compassion. They (aryas) should follow their Guru's instructions and be at peace and let others be free to follow their road to "Truth". This goes for Vinaire also. If he wants to follow the path of "Scientology" so be it. But it is unwise and arrogant to belittle the various religious practices of Hindu dharma.

The aryas(???)are going about saying that their method is the only correct approach. This is not true. There are many roads to "Truth". Theirs is one among the many. To belittle the methods of others is arrogant and devoid of love and compassion. They (aryas) should follow their Guru's instructions and be at peace and let others be free to follow their road to "Truth". This goes for Vinaire also. If he wants to follow the path of "Scientology" so be it. But it is unwise and arrogant to belittle the various religious practices of Hindu dharma.

Master Ashegan,

There are nearly 400 million Hindus who are living in extreme unsanitary conditions. This is truly unfortunate. They are desperate. What does it matter to them or to the "aryas" if they go to Varanasi and drink the waters of Ganga even if it is not clean?

They have so much prema and bhakti in their Hearts for their Lord Vishnu or by any other name. This bhakti and prema itself is enough to earn them "moksha". This kind of faith is far greater and valuable than the corrupted Jnana of people like Ramesh.

Dear Sivadasa,

Arrogance is an interesting subject. I do not see Ashegan as arrogant though he may appear that way to Murali (no offence intended).

Thus, arrogance is in the eye of the beholder. Who said that truth is always pleasing. People seem to like those viewpoints that agree with theirs, but they are very suspicious of other viewpoints that are beyond their understanding. Such viewpoint may tend to offend them, however well intentioned it may be.

But, then, what can you do? You simply can't go around and be pleasing to everyone. That's an impossible task.

But, what matters is the intention. And I don't think that the intentions of Ramesh or Ashegan are bad. And mine neither.

We all want to see the conditions of existence improve. If conditions are what they are with the current beliefs then those beliefs need a closer examination if you want these conditions to improve.

If the aryas are so busy trying to clean up the others, it betrays that they are not at peace amongst themselves. If they have found the sacred peace, then they would just be amused at their fellow Hindus who are immersed in puranas and sipping teertham instead of beer and just let them be. Who is actually drinking contaminated teertham? If you observe closely with attention, it is Lord Vishnu who is actually doing the drinking of HIS own teertham HIMSELF.....

Namaste Muralidahar Raoji,

The aryas(???)are going about saying that their method is the only correct approach. This is not true. There are many roads to "Truth". Theirs is one among the many.
How are you going to determine if your route leads you to truth? Doesn’t it require reasoning? I don’t expect that from a person who thinks ignorance is bliss.

To belittle the methods of others is arrogant and devoid of love and compassion.
We don’t show praise for ignorance.

They (aryas) should follow their Guru's instructions and be at peace and let others be free to follow their road to "Truth".
We don’t follow Guru’s instructions blindly. We always try to be a Nachiketa. We are on this message board to discuss our views. In a discussion we might support or oppose the ideas of other people. You might even consider shit as prasad because of your blind beliefs. I never accept it because I use Jnana.

But it is unwise and arrogant to belittle the various religious practices of Hindu dharma.
It is unwise to shower praise for ignorance.

Ramesh

 
Namaste Muralidhar Raoji,
There are nearly 400 million Hindus who are living in extreme unsanitary conditions.
And your gods are living in riches. Why don’t you pray Kubera?

This is truly unfortunate. They are desperate. What does it matter to them or to the "aryas" if they go to Varanasi and drink the waters of Ganga even if it is not clean?
Shows that you have reached the peak of ignorance.

They have so much prema and bhakti in their Hearts for their Lord Vishnu or by any other name.
Looks like there will be no scarcity of fools in this world because Hinduism (Corrupted) has joined the race with other religions of the world.

This bhakti and prema itself is enough to earn them "moksha".
Is having sex with Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama in heaven called Moksha?

This kind of faith is far greater and valuable than the corrupted Jnana of people like Ramesh.
My method leads to the realization of the utlimate reality. Your method leads you into the hands of Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama. Kiski buddi nash hai?

Ramesh

Muralidhar Raoji

If they have found the sacred peace, then they would just be amused at their fellow Hindus who are immersed in puranas and sipping teertham instead of beer and just let them be.
1) You said Prema and Bhakti devoid of reason, logic, intelligence leads to moksha.
2) We know that the people who are under the influence of alcohol lose their power of reasoning.
From 1 and 2 we deduce that beer aids Hindus attain moksha. So, why don’t you tell your temple priests to serve beer instead of contaminated water.

Who is actually drinking contaminated teertham? If you observe closely with attention, it is Lord Vishnu who is actually doing the drinking of HIS own teertham HIMSELF.....
Replace drink with eat and teertaham with shit and observe the results. Would you take it as a divya prasadam?

Ramesh Namaste,

This ahamkar called "me" "mine" "pride" "I am right and you are wrong", "I am wise and others are fools" and on, and on, and on,is the only obstacle to moksha and Love. This ahamkar is itself ignorance. A true "arya" would never mock at his fellow men. Ramesh, I am sorry that you have a one track mind. Expecting your snidely retort as usual.

This ahamkar called "me" "mine" "pride" "I am right and you are wrong", "I am wise and others are fools" and on, and on, and on,is the only obstacle to moksha and Love. This ahamkar is itself ignorance. A true "arya" would never mock at his fellow men. Ramesh, I am sorry that you have a one track mind. Expecting your snidely retort as usual.

I do see a point in Ramesh's "snide" remark which, obviously, can be distasteful to many. But, it is also funny like hell, if taken in the right spirit (without attachment)! No offence intended.

It is true that blind faith is not the way out. Trust and faith maybe, but then one should trust and believe in that which is already proven to give results.

Letting things be as they are is bound to lead to deterioration. Swami Vivekanand did not exhort the Hindus without thought. "Rise up! Awake!! Don't give in to lethargy!!!" That should be the watchword.

Shree Rama
Ashegan, great post, well thought out and written. It is quite funny because i just had this discussion about faith with a few other people at college. It has been my experience that faith in and of itself is the only thing that keeps the humans going on throughout the course of life. Faith in a Divine, faith in other humans, faith in emotions, faith in luck and so on. What is the true difference between faith as in blind faith and faith based on inquiry and reasoning? Faith based on reasoning and inquiry is infinitely better than blind faith but the nature of the faith remains the same. The faith brought about by reasoning and logic can be explained to others but blind faith cannot. Blind faith is like groping in the dark, faith based on reason and logic is like having a lamp in the night but faith based on logic and reasoning with spiritual experience and bhakthi is like the sun vanishing the darkness and night.
This is the faith that we must all strive for. Mediatate upon this, feel the presence within you and respond to Him.
That Supreme Being who resides in all of our souls as the antaryami brahman, who is present all around us through the universe and whose infinite love and compassion is felt when we enter into mediatation and feel his presence within us. This Supreme Being cannot be proven or shown in any way, "It" can only be experienced. This experience is based on faith that their exists something that is greater and more overwhelming than us, something that resides within and without us, we cannot justify this faith or this experience because it overwhelms us, this experience transcends all logic and reasoning. This is why the vedas are so ambigious and vague, this is also the reason why there are so many different interpretations of the vedas and their philosophy, these experiences of these great sages and seers were written in sanskrit, the vedas themselves have no language written or spoken, they in fact speak the language of experience. The vedas are attempts to explain the experiences, the best attempts that one can achieve within the human or mundane realm. Spiritual experience outweights the vedas, if the vedas and spiritual experience contradict (which they will never do), then the vedas must be interpretated to fit the experience. The authority of the vedas rests on the fact that it is not man made or spoken by "God", it is rather that it is a direct experience of the Supreme, now if someone else were to experience the supreme in a different way that maybe is not in the vedas or does not totally agree with the vedas, who are we to say that the experience is false or wrong, the relationship between the supreme and you is personal, therefore cannot be shared with others. The vedas are the guide to experience the supreme, not the goal unto themselves.

I agree with what you said about the universe, it is indeed a reality. The idea of morality is something i don't agree with you upon, morality is a system of beliefs that one is socialized into, not something that is inherent in a individual. Logic and reasoning are again given to us by society and by ideals with in society, logic is a man made construct used to deduce and explain everything we see and experience(both spiritual and mundane). Which is why we see two very different types of logical systems, the western and indian. Logic is very confining it can go only so far, what can be proven through logic can be unproven through logic. The only universal ideal is mathmatics which cannot be changed, which is why the concept of infinity is perfect for the explaination of the Supreme.
The thing that truly seperates us from animals is the ability to concentrate and our conscienceness. We are conscience of our actions therefore we can control them. Our conscience lets us question the reason for existance and so on. We are the only animals that can concentrate without a medium to concentrate on.

I never said anything about mating with every female that walks by, my statement was made to show that much of what we hold to be moral or right may in fact not be what is natural or nature's law. The idea of monogamy is sure not, no animal but humans and only in the past 4 or 5 thousand years at that have been practicing this. I personally believe in monogamy and many moral ideals but these ideals are best for me, not everyone. One inherently knows what will take them down a spiritual path, i know mine lies with my morality and so on, someone else might be on a higher spiritual plane and his limits might be higher.

As to your comments about the vimanhas and cloning, cloning is already being done now, in labs all over the world, by the year 2003 the entire human genome will be mapped out, then it is only time until wholesale cloning will be done. As for vimanhas, a airplane is a sort of vimanha so are spaceships and ufos if you believe in them, which i am inclined to do because why would God only create humans alone in this huge universe, that doesn't make sense, but that is a tangent from this.

That being who is beyond all form and all impurities such as death, sickness, anger, hunger, thrist and so on, the source of all things and beings, the giver of moksha and the eternal indweller within our souls and the universes, the source of the vedas is the same being we both worship. Let us use this as our starting off position to build a strong relationship in faith. May that faith which fosters both you and i show us the path to the Supreme, through love, compassion, kindness and mutual understanding.

Akshaya Patitam Toyam
Saagaram Gaachati Yaatha
Sarvadeva Namaskaram
Kesavam Paarigaachati

Like the rain from the sky flows to the sea, so do all the prayers to all the devas flow to Lord Kesava.

Shree Rama Jayam
Shree Ramanujaya Namah
-Mukunda

i've tried to create the premise for arya-sanatana peace and dialogue... i'm not perfect in my observations and i admit that.. i write from a corner in a labyrinth of truth, and with god's help i will find the right path out into the sunshine of brahma..
but that doesn't mean sticking to myself and shuttering up my beliefs and opinions, if i know that by sharing them with others, our burden becomes less and our journey easier...

sri vinaire, as always i'm very flattered by your good remarks.. but be careful of those that use sweet-sounding language to deliver their message (even mine)... we must all exercise our sharpened buddhi and realise those few bridging points that will help us come together in a common bond.. (i'm sorry if my reference to brahma made him seem anthropomorphic)

sri suresh points out that the mutant horse actually signifies the seven rays of sunlight.. it is easy to read science into the puraans and if it gives you a feeling of peace in your tradition,then all success to you... the puraans may be rich in metaphor to some, and plain hocus-pocus nonsense to others.. either way, one needs to stay cool and rational, and use the faculty of reason wisely to figure this out... (btw i'm anxious to find out the scientific background of the earth-turtle scenario)

to sri hariharan, my understanding of saguna and nirguna is that god is both... as saguna he possessed of the characteristics of truth, light, omnipresence, omniscience etc. and as nirguna he is devoid of such things as sin, vice, form, texture etc... neither contradicts the other.. praise to our rishis who have left us such a wealth of terms to glorify the almighty...

sri murali defends with much passion the intense faith that the devotees hold in their hearts as they sip the teertam from hard-working hands... yes, such people do live in poverty and unhygienic conditions... perhaps in a vedic state things would be different, but this is the way things are right now...
are we going to be complacent and just watch our brothers gulp away at something we know with our flashy degrees and scholarship, is bad for them?...

i think you would far greater please maha vishnu, the all-seeing father, by teaching your country men how to sanitise their drinking water and better irrigate their fields, and to use their yatr money to build their resources and help their community prosper... to me, that would be far more uplifting and spiritual than travelling rocky distances to sip unclean water...

the puranic hindu believes the ganga is trickling down from four-headed brahma's toe and then meanders through shiv's matted dreadlocks before flowing onto the thirsty delta...
the arya says the gangas starts with ice floes in the himalayas and subterranean water sources...

both are beliefs that neither party has really investigated, but one is made with reasoning according to the laws of nature and logic... then it is up to the individual to decide which suits his belief system better...

we are not belittling your puraan-paved road, murali ji.. but if we see that its a little crooked or there are nasty glass pieces in your way its our duty to help remove them, or to help you help yourself by rational, discerning thought...

prem and bhakt is essential... without it one is dry, no matter how knowledgeable one is... but if you stay with those margas alone, you will drown without the breath of good sound vedic jnan to invigorate you... murali ji, we must always keep our minds active.. when we give way to blind belief and follow pharisaically the ways we have been taught, we will not make much progress...

and you end on an esoteric note.. that god is the sipper and the sipped.. sounds neo-vedantic to me.. i think our understanding of god is poles apart so it will be a little tougher to reconcile this subject... to me, god is the saakshin of every little deed, watching us toil with mercy and love, offering his guidance when he can (conscience)... we believe he is seperate from the prakriti (physical matter), as the prakriti is seperate from our atma...

sri murali, one who has found the sacred peace would never smile and chuckle at those still caught up in avidya.. he will dive back into the oily waters of ignorance hoping to help others out, as the altruistic teachers before him have done... one should never be content with ones own welfare alone.. that is one of our 'arrogant' arya commandments...

it seems i was quite misunderstood right at the outset.. i gave the arya view of the puraans as spiritual texts and made no personal claim to the road to enlightenment.. aryas are not making any anti-hindu claims here..
i believe there is one big road leading to the gates of moksha... nine spears lengthwise in width for the righteous and thin as a blade for the wicked who just tumble back into the molten rock of samsar... and of those that are on the road firmly, some are a little faster than others, that's true, and others are slowed down by a backful of stone images or bucketfuls of teertam water...
but at night when we whisper to ourselves 'sarveshaam swastir bhavatu', we pray for the almighty to give them a little nugde on the way...

Namaste Muralidhar Raoji,

This ahamkar called "me" "mine" "pride" "I am right and you are wrong", "I am wise and others are fools" and on, and on, and on,is the only obstacle to moksha and Love. This ahamkar is itself ignorance.
Person A says 1 + 1 = 2
Person B says 1 + 1 = 0
Is it called Ahamkar to correct person B? Is it ahankar if person A says that he is right? Is it called love if person A accepts Person B’s answer? Who is ignorant person A or person B?

A true "arya" would never mock at his fellow men.
Did I mock you? I never had that intention.

Expecting your snidely retort as usual.
Wouldn’t that be better than illogical answers?

Ramesh

It is sheer arrogance and pride to feel that one can help others. It is Lord Vishnu who is embedded in every body's spiritual Heart who helps. Please do not arrogate to your petty self the mercy and blessings of the Good Lord. Nobody is asking anyone to drink contaminated teertha nor should anyone make fun of of the person who does so by drinking the waters of the Ganga. I have compassion toward the poverty stricken Hindus and Indians who are living in poverty. Of course they need pure and clean water just like anyone but due to the current situation they are not able to get it. If you do not wish to drink pure teertha nobody is asking you to. Let those who wish to drink pure or impure teertha do so in peace.

Personally I never read or have studied the puranas but I do not look down upon those who study them. Personally I do not worship Lord Vishnu in the form of images, nor do I practice rituals, but I do not criticize or mock at those who do. Personally I do not drink pure or contaminated teertha but I wish those who do the very best. Personally I do not go to temples but it does not mean temples should be demolished. Personally I don't care a hoot for Arya Samaj or Scientology ( no offence intended like you guys say to me) but I wish those who do speedy enlightemnent. If they already are enlightened I am happy for them. Personally I don't wish to take a dip in the pure and impure Ganga but those who do so with pure bhakti and prema for Bhagavan Rama are far ahead of me spiritually. I never feel my path is superior or inferior to the paths of others like some in this forum are presently feeling ( suprerior to them of course) and behaving arrogantly and at the same breath denying it.

Ashegan is right in saying that we need to help each other out. One cannot just sit and smirk in one's self-justified divinity and let others flounder, and not extend a helping hand.

One cannot give one's responsibility to God. That is cruelty, that is meanness, that is being very unkind, that is being very unloving.

One has to take responsibility not only to bring oneself closer to God but others too, the best way one can. All one needs is to be totally clean in one's intention and in one's heart.

Take responsibility. Don't assign all responsibility to your idea of God. God is not some idea to be used whenever convenient. God is YOU weighed down by your own considerations.

Know thyself! And be yourself!!

Is the personality called "Vinaire" God? Is the "ahamkar" of Vinaire God? Do you really know yourself as God? Everyone is being himself and herself. Just because we may not agree with your views does not mean we are not being our natural selves. God is not an idea. It maybe so to you. Your above message shows that you have no concept of a Hindu way of spiritual life. Did I ever say that one should not give a helping hand to the needy? All I said was not to take credit for such help upon oneself but to give it to God who is the true helper. Try to understand what the other is saying and don't distort the meaning of the message deliberately.

Murali,

Why do you think I am targetting you? I just made a general observation on the subject matter of this thread.

I have noticed many times that you take things personally that are not meant to be that way. Then later you make apologies for misunderstanding the other person.

Why is that? Why are you so worried about that "Murali"?

Faith is used for what cannot be determined objectively by reason. God, Soul etc. can only be accepted on faith. It can be realized (an statement of faith) but cannot be reasoned. One can argue and reason forever but cannot show God, Soul etc. objectively to others.

I accept what Sri Ramkrishna said on faith when asked whether blind faith was not wrong. The paramhamsa said that "blind faith was the only kind to have, for faith is either blind or it is not faith but something else - reasoned inference, proved conviction or ascertained knowledge." What Sri Ashegan calls justified faith is no faith at all. It is not faith that the Sun will rise tomorrow. It is an ascertained knowledge based on experience. And experience is later to faith.

However, the Ganga water at Varanasi is too polluted to drink is an objective fact and any argument otherwise is not blind faith but foolishness. These are not the instances when one should rely on faith. At the same time there are arguments on faith in the blessing powers of prasaad and panchamrit or charanamrit. Such arguments are nonsense because such faith is extremely good for devotees. It is not simply water. It doesn't stop people from using one's resources to help others. There is no reason in viewing faith as opposing charity or development. Adi Shankara's jnana continues to help millions but Ramkrishna's devotion is no less potent.

We have to realize that Jnana yoga, Bhakti yoga, Karma yoga and Raja yoga are complementary, not contradictory. Bhakti in complete absence of karma and jnana is as ineffective as jnana in complete absence of bhakti and karma and karma in complete absence of jnana and bhakti. Extreme rationalism leaves no room for love and extreme love may refuse to see any reason. The need is to balance the different aspects of spiritual paths. The problem is that while trying to concentrate the path that suits us best we try to completely ignore the rest. That will lead us nowhere.

I wonder why Sri Ashegan and Sri Ramesh take it for granted that Ganga is full of excrement and dangerous bacteria. There is no denying the fact that Ganga in its lower reaches is indeed dirty. Knowing the value of Ganga in Hindu religious life we should focus on making it clean for the devotees to take a dip in it safely. Instead we have intellectuals condemning the practice of taking a dip in Ganga itself. For those whose reason does not allow them to take a dip in Ganga below Varanasi, there is a noble cause - to clean Ganga. In the meantime, they can seek inspiration by taking a dip at Haridwar and upstream. I can guarantee that there is no excrement and harmful bacteria there.

Sri Ashegan asks, "will almighty rudr, who is impartial in the swift meting out of his divine justice, really stall this punishment that i deserve merely coz i bathed in the ganga?" A devotee standing in Ganga at Rishikesh would say, "mother Ganga and Bhagwan Shiva can never be so cruel as to punish those who devote their lives to them. And if that is there wish, so be it." Rishi vasisht could never be wrong. What is wrong is to declare based on one's limited reason what is good and what is bad karma.

As far as insulting sacred symbols of Hindus is concerned, I can't see what reasonable purpose is served by insulting and opposing something sacred and spiritually useful to others. The reason Hindus get offended if you pass a comment on an elephant defecating is because you pass that comment equating Lord Ganesha with elephant. What makes you forget your analysis of word Ganesha then? You are distorting the symbolism there. If I love my father, I don't want anybody defecate on the chair he sits on. Because I associate that chair with my father, it reminds me of my father. You know it pretty well that an elephant reminds Hindus of Ganesha, not that they can't differentiate an elephant from Ganesha. That is why you use elephant to insult Hindus' worshiping Ganesha.

And I object to this expression of 'puranic Hindu'. Why don't Arya Samaji call themselves 'partial Vedic and limited smritic Hindu'? After all they accept Mantra Samhita of Vedas and that is not all they believe in. They also accept thousands of Shashtras.

I very much appreciate Sri Ashegan's comment, "vijnan and vivek should always go hand in hand with shraddha". Why then he suddenly condemns and criticizes Bhakti? What is shraddha to him? Also when he says, "let us use the true ved jnan that for over a century has been blazing before us", he should make it clear that he doesn't mean to impose his understanding of what portions of Vedas are Vedas and what is true understanding of Vedas. Otherwise, all the talk of using veda jnana boils down to jnana as interpreted by some chosen few.

All these should never mean that we should be hostile to each other and I fully support Sri Ashegan in that. Let us learn from each other.

P.S.:Some, like Sri Vinaire, just grab every chance to prove that jnana is superior to Bhakti. I think it is their belief, much like Lokayats, that what can be objectively demonstrated and sensually perceived has higher truth value than that taken on scriptural testimony and realized personally, not merely by sensual perception and reason but also through mental perception, Self-realization and Yogic Intuition. Obviously, I would reject any such notion and any relative evaluation of different paths in Hindu dharma.

Sri Suresh,

Puranas are indeed poetic and very efficient in bringing the truth and dharma to common masses. The symbolism and mysticism is not only the hallmark of Puranas but all of Hindus scriptures, including Vedas and Upanishads. It is surprising if Sri Ramesh and others take Puranic symbolism at their face value but see deep meaning in symbols of Vedas and Upanishads.

At the same time, we should not be content with understanding some symbolism and just extrapolate that all other symbols have profound meanings. There should be an effort at understanding and documenting of all symbols in our scriptures. We should not discount the possibility that meanings and use of some symbols might have been distorted for worldly reasons by some people. These can only be corrected through proper understanding. Also some obviously absurd interpretation of symbols should be criticized and discouraged.

Sri Ramesh,

You claim to work with reason. You claim to adhere to truth and criticize ignorance. There is no problem with all this and whether you accept it or not, I would claim the same. It is not the question of claims and counterclaims then. The question is: do you practice what you so vigorously preach? Let us consider some of your statements in this thread.

We don't show praise for ignorance.

Neither does anybody else on this forum. Can you prove only you know what is knowledge and what is ignorance?

We don't follow Guru's instructions blindly. We always try to be a Nachiketa.

How do you know you are being successful in that?

We are on this message board to discuss our views. In a discussion we might support or oppose the ideas of other people.

None of the above calls for using profane languages. Does it?

You might even consider shit as prasad because of your blind beliefs.

Show us a single person accepting shit as prasaad or withdraw your statement as false and derogatory.

I never accept it because I use Jnana.

How can you use insulting and abusive language with a purely hypothetical situation and still consider yourself as using Jnana?

It is unwise to shower praise for ignorance.

That is true. Is it wise to consider oneself as the sole authority on what is knowledge and what is ignorance?

And your gods are living in riches. Why don't you pray Kubera?

Have you ever seen any Hindu sitting idly and praying to Kubera in the hope that s/he would become rich? Has anyone here made a suggestion to the effect that praying to Kubera is a way to become rich? I can appreciate if you suggest that ordinary Hindus should be made to understand that nothing is achieved without proper karma. But you are not justified in suggesting that participants on this forum accept such ridiculous ideas as you attribute to Hinduism.

Is having sex with Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama in heaven called Moksha?

Where is it said that those going to heaven will have sex with Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama? Why your jnana, common sense and Vedic knowledge makes you ask such obviously absurd qeustions?

My method leads to the realization of the utlimate reality.

Don't forget that this is merely an assumption, a belief until you realize the UR. Your method will be of no help to you if you just use it to look down on others.

Your method leads you into the hands of Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama.

Can you justify this statement based on jnana and common sense?

Sri Ramesh, if you intend to discuss your ideas here, let everyone know those ideas. So far you have totally failed in your own declared mission.

In the popular Indian culture today, faith is outweighed too much by the ideas of "Bhakti."

Jnana is a hard pill to swallow at times. It is not necessarily the easy way out. But it is a certain way out of the trap of Maya.

Today, faith needs an infusion of Jnana not only in the physical realm but also in the spiritual realm.

But if you are satisfied with the way the conditions are in the society today, and if you are also satisfied with the condition of the majority of the people today, then ...

You can simply ignore my two cents worth and stick to your interpretation of the Truth.

sri mukunda ji, you've used a beautiful analogy of the nature of faith in men's lives... even our pure-hearted rshis lost in contemplation had to have faith that the words that poured into their minds from above where the words of the almighty himself... it's a complicated issue... i think it would take years of study and introspection to really figure it out... and maybe someday when i do, i'll come back and let you know about it :)

as you say, in this kali yug the vedas seem vague and ambiguous to us...
our wise swamiji's interpretation is just one among many.. and he said that too.. we must use our vivek, our buddhi, to enquire and study and find the right one ourselves.. he did not monopolise the ved and neither do i, but eventually there is only ONE vedic truth and that is what each soul will ultimately reach...

on the subject of the unquestionable authority of the vedas, a visiting swami once told me- if you find something faulty in the vedas or something that contradicts your own conscience or spiritual experience, it's your interpretation of the veda that's wrong... the vedas are just words put together in harmony, like rta forever going on around us.. but the accurate understanding of those words and their relation to one another and our own lives, is left up to us as individuals...

on logic and reasoning, yes, it is something acquired from outside... it is the reason human beings have organised themselves into communities and nations... we depend on the interaction with others for our personal benefit.. on our own we could never come up with the notions of moral order... but that is the glory of mortal life.. that we are social creatures and society is something we learn from...

this instinct we have to come together and work out such things as morality, is god-given, hence what we acquire from outside - all the moral teachings that our faiths and our learned ones impart to us are part of that dynamic process that leads to our own personal realisation... logic and reasoning appear somewhat differently to different people depending on which side they're on, and what they want to prove... it's a slippery path to take but the fact that in the end the truth is one and the same, whatever side we're wrangling on, is most inspiring to know...

the almighty has given animals the instinctual urge to mate at the appropriate seasons... it is something they are conditioned and 'programmed' for so as to ensure the continued line of species.. just try to stop a rogue elephant in musth from mounting a passing female - that is the order in nature that i assumed you meant.. animals cannot be called polygamous as it is a human term and the emotional network of human life is vastly different from that of animals... we have moral implications to consider, including the teachings of our religions and societies...

i believe human history to be far beyond 5000 years and the moral practises of the vedas have been there since the birth of man on earth... think of all the traditions of the world faiths - adam and eve, manu and ida, yama and yami... one man, one woman... that is the basic equation of a human marriage... over time, as wealth and lust and power increased polygamy grew and the rules got a bit more complicated... maybe we can discuss this issue another time coz it is quite interesting...

what i meant by my comment on the flying vimanas and the clones was that why didn't india achieve that first, before the west, if its all in your scriptures? next the christians will come and say that mary was artificially inseminated and that the 'burning chariots' seen by their prophets were really UFO's... we need to be discerning about what was real and what was imaginary (note: i'm not denying the possibility of all these advances existing in some atlantean paradise of the past)...

and to your heartwarming message of brotherhood through faith, i second it most readily... may the almighty bless us with true and lasting faith and lead us by the right path to the fulfilment of life... (yuyodhyasmajju huraanamenu)

murali ji, i'm sorry if you see helping others as arrogance and pride... to me, i feel it is one of the most humbling experiences mortals can have... to give of oneself, be it it through wealth or wisdom, is daan, it is part of yajna... it is something we must all strive for.. if you know something that i do not know, something that will benefit me and keep me in good health, and you keep it to yourself, that is being selfish... i hope that's not part of the 'hindu way of life' you brag about to vinaire...

it is true - hridi sarvasya vishthitam... that is a beautiful thought, but doesn't really relate to your opposition to helping others... no giant hand is going to come from the sky and help your ignorant brothers... that is something left up to you, as one capable of giving help or advice... that is part of what makes us human - the willingness to help others...

don't make fun of people that drink teertam... that is as much in ignorance as drinking the teertam blindly.. by mocking, one only drags oneself deeper into the mesh of what you call 'ahamkar' and furthers oneself from the almighty... it is good that you have compassion for the hindus living in poverty, murali.. so do i... but if you do not act on that compassion it is stagnant and of no use in the world around you... let that compassion be the force that fires you to educate these people and show them what they are doing wrong (risking their health by drinking dangerously polluted water), and how they can rectify it (boiling the water, making it clean, letting water not stagnate outside their homes, not to waste the drinking water they have, to be wary of polluting their natural water sources)...

i have no qualms with drinking water as a ritual act... twice every day i sip water as achaman (shanno devir abishtaya) when i say sandhyaa and before every havan (amritapastaranamasii svaha) (note: clean water, not cholera / germ infested)... as manu says, the outside is cleansed by water and inside we are cleansed by truth... that is the thought one holds as one sips the water in the right hand...

let your brethren know that.. tell them, after helping them sanitise the water by boiling or distillation, to think to themselves - oh apah (dual meaning - adhibhautik and adhyatmik - water and the all-pervading god), punantu me - purify me, let the utterance of truth and contemplation of the almighty purify me, let my soul be washed with the cleansing milk of the love of god for his creation, oh pushan (nourisher) may i seek to be honest in my dealings and sweet in my speech.. help me achieve these goals....

maybe not the same words, but you get what i mean... engage active thinking with the process of taking teertam, not only bhakt for vishnu that the water will carry them to vaikuntha and all the bevies of nymphs and apsaras, but intellectually pondering the meaning of their action.. how can it help in their personal betterment and their attitude towards life and other people.. eventually they will even be able to take teertam without any water there...

all i'm advocating is greater thinking and meditative enquiry involved, not getting rid of their traditions completely... i am not condemning, just offering a more wholesome, constructive way of doing something that for a long time has just been a ritual passed down through generations... the only way our traditions will survive in strength and spiritual power is if we reinterpret them and give them a meaning that can uplift us on all levels...

murali ji, you say you've never studied the puraans or even read them... my question is how can you defend something you haven't investigated for yourself... i wouldn't write a word on the puraans if i hadn't read any myself... they were my story books from the time i was a child (though then i often didn't understand the erotic parts like semen shooting into the fire when shiv saw parvati's thighs), so i write from a background where i've read them... you can only make informed responses on the issue of the puraans when you've read them yourself... until then, i respectfully suggest you let it cool down for a while...

so you don't drink teerta and wish those that do the best... i don't they will be feeling the best when bilharzia or some other water-borne ailment starts eating them from the inside... use the knowledge and education you have, murali, to change what is unhealthy or undesirable... the greatest sadness is when good men do nothing...

so you don't worship maha vishnu through images huh? would you feel offended if someone denigrated the blue figure dozing on the polycephalic snake in an ocean of milk surrounded by an ocean of rum then?
please know i'm not trying to mock you at all... it's great you pray to the unseen god (sounds arya to me : )) but it would be even better if you explained to those that do worship images, what the name and quality that they are worshipping actually mean and how they relate to the one almighty god who they can't see...

while you should never condemn the way they worship outright, help create the consciousness whereby they can improve spiritually by talking about what you share with them - that god is vishnu, the all-pervading, the all-seeing (from vish - to pervade) and that as such he witnesses each of their wrongdoings, or shiv, the merciful, the blissful, that every lost soul in hurt or pain can turn to for solace...

thanks for the good wishes to aryas everywhere, but don't just wish us on our way.. tell us what you think is wrong with our approach or our doctrines and listen to our responses... be prepared to take our criticism or advice in turn.. that way we all benefit.. from dialogue and exchange comes greater peace and understanding...
and don't just be happy for the enlightened, try to get there yourself.. find out what they're doing right to get to that stage (tritiiye dhaaman) and what you're doing wrong...

someone who dunks their head into grungy water coz they've sinned and want it struck off their 'black book' in heaven is not much more spiritually advanced than you, murali ji... enquire the reason for their devotions and the kashi yatr.. what do they want to achieve?... praise the bhakt they have for their god... show them how to take the inner yatr to good action (yajna) and bathe in good knowledge and the company of the righteous... help combine the outer ritual with the inner transformation for those that cannot easily comprehend it...

and with all respect, show me that offending breath in which i'm at once arrogant and not, at the same time... if i am straying from my goal in creating arya-sanatana peace show me where i'm stumbling murali ji... quote passages if need be... and with the help of the almighty i will try to change what is ostensibly wrong in my argument....

i agree, jha, that we can go on arguing and reasoning forever and still show no direct packaged evidence for the existence of god... for me the physical and moral order that governs the world visibly is proof enough for a higher order, that i like to call god.. for others it isn't enough... nature and everything we know to be true could just be an accident for all they know...

god as a being has to be realised and i'm sure all of us have come close to him in prayer or felt his hand in some event of our lives for us to know somewhere up there, inside, all around is a conscious, loving and merciful god... even all the arguments i've used to prove the authenticity of vedas being apaurusheya might be a bone of contention for some... you can never please everyone in this world... and in the kali yug faith in the truth isn't enough anymore... we have to rationalise and nit-pick at things until our limited buddhi feels it's satisfied...

when i said some faith is justified i did not mean something as base and simplistic as the sun breaking in the east tomorrow... i meant that what we as cognizant, intelligent beings are able to ascertain about the universe and the laws that shape our existence, can help in the deduction of what lies beyond...
udutyam jaatavedasam devam vahanti ketavah, drishe vishvaaya suuryam...
the world and all of creation are like flags or even arrows pointing to a creator, the sun of our lives and our spiritual light...

we experience a little bit of god in prayer... that leads to increased faith... so to me, faith in god is an amalgam of all that we as men trapped in the darkness of a physical world can understand and apply...

as i said in my post to murali ji, there is nothing wrong with the drinking of water designated holy in faith... it is faith that makes the water glow with goodness and the soul warm with love, not the water itself... charity (daan), bringing things and people together for a common purpose (sangati-karan) and personal enlightenment and prayer (devpuja) are the three pillars of yajna (true worship/good action)... faith should never oppose karma yog as you say... in fact it should give a boost to community developement and interaction by emphasizing our common humanity...

i'm sorry if i gave the impression otherwise.. what i was contesting was indiscriminantly drinking polluted asaucha water (note: one of the five niyamas is saucha - purity and cleanliness), without considering the consequences or the good meaning that lies beneath the ritualistic shell...

i agree completely with the observations regarding the three margas... i will gladly bow before one in whom they are firmly in balance as even in myself they shift and slide in proportion... affirming the need for this inner equilibrium will be to the benefit (bhadram) of all...

and yes, the upper reaches of the ganga are as pure as the snow it touches on its descent... one day i hope to visit these pristine spots on the higher ganga where so many holy men have attained enlightenment... but even if i edge semi-naked to dip in the revered waters that feed millions of my people, it will not be to erase my soul of the sins that blacken it.. i must pay for those.. i realise that.. and a thousand pilgrimages with a thousand baths will not wash them away from me...

i think the idea to clean up the ganga will be the truest ganga puja in the history of bharat.. that is an action that is right on track with the arya philosophy of true worship... i admire that suggestion, jha..

the devotee knee-deep in the ganga may think that his god will forgive his sins, but not his own good fortune... if he knows that bhagwan makes him suffer for his sin because he has love for his worshippers and wishes for them to improve themselves by learning from the experience, he will not think like that...

rather he will say - 'parbrahma parmatma, i know i will pay for each wrongdoing, for stealing that buffalo milk, or lying to the panchayat, or raping my servant.. i feel great repentance for the evils i have done, and accept my punishment with faith and trust in thy unerring justice... give me forebearance (saho'si saho mayi dehi) to deal with what lies ahead and fortitude that i may stay away from sinning again (duritaani paraasuva).. as i bathe in the ganga help me wash away the base desires and ill-will that lead me on the wrong path..'

on the subject of blaspheming the puranic ganesh, god almighty pervades the elephant as much as any other creature... i will really admire hindus when they defend other animals as vociferously as they do this gentle pachyderm...

when my parents went to india they saw the way elephants are treated... with chains on their feet barely allowing them to move... rusty blades behind their ears (very very sensitive region for an elephant) so the mahout can punish him at his whim... pointy goads that leave punctures on the wrinkled but thin skin...

if hindus feel ganesh is strongest in the elephant, then i wish they'd show it by treating it as well as the god they serve... let kindness for the living animal be your ganesh puja.. let every mahout and elephant trainer be a ganesh pujari... then aryas will back off and even praise your worship of the elephant god...
and if we could extend that mercy and reverence to the other oppressed, and voiceless chatushpade of our world, how much greater that would be...

(btw as regards your comments to ramesh on the use of droppings as prasad... it might not be so closely related, but some hindu boys have to drink cow urine as part of their upanayan coz they believe it's so holy)

on nomenclature, the main scriptural difference between aryas and sanatanas is that aryas completely reject the puraans... hence the term refers to those among that believe in the puraans as holy books... it does not detract from your belief in other shastras.. it simply is a term of differentiation.. if it offends you i'll use another word, but it won't change what i mean... you can call aryas whatever you want - vedic hindus, 'partial vedic (note: not true.. the whole veda is our scripture but the samhita is the revealed portion to us) and limited smritic' hindus, vedic-cum-satyarth-prakash hindus, dayanand-influenced-pre-sanatana hindus, reformist-orthodox hindus, vedic-smritic-satyarthic hindus, non-murti-worshipping aryan hindus, or just plain old aryas... i won't feel offended.. choose what you feel comfortable with...

i'm glad you appreciate something i wrote, jha but i didn't lambaste bhakt at all.. go back and see that i've said repeatedly (not only on this thread) that jnan without bhakt and prem is dry, and that all margas are necessary for spiritual growth... selective reading is not good...

shraddha to me is probably what it is to you.. it's faith, a large part of this discussion...
and not once have i tried to impose 'my understanding of vedas' on this thread... please quote and substantiate.. if i'm wrong most of you know me well enough to know i will admit my fault and apologise...

and if you must know, my understanding of vedas is essentially two-fold.. in one sense it is the portion of each ved that aryas hold to be revealed (ie mantra samhitas), and in the other, it is the body of literature (brahmans, aranyakas, upanishads, other 'true' shastras - conforming to natural law, direct/indirect cognition etc.) that surrounds the revealed part... this does not include the puraans, if that is what you're getting to...

please let's not get too suspicious of one another as that undermines the commonality and brotherhood we are trying to build... i have not complained that any sanatana here is trying to impose his doctrines on me..

i'm glad we can at least come together on your final point... let this be the axis that we move around in discussion (saduraah charantah).. that we are trying to learn from one another and aren't afraid to do so...
eg. from vinaire, i've learn't not to get too carried away with emotion and rhetoric (and conversely not to become too rational and scientific), from murali i've learn't to be passionate about my beliefs and in my defence of my religion (and to temper my arguments with some academic jnan), from you, jha, i've learn't... stuff too : )) (when i think of it i'll post it), from ramesh, i've learn't not be moved by fear of what others will think or say...

we should all look upon each other with eyes of well-meaning friendship under the common shelter of the ved.. mitrasya chakshusha samikshamahe!

wait, i've got it... from jha i've learn't that religion should always be coherent with common sense and that one has to be prepared to accept if something in one's own religious fold is wrong...

You express yourself well, Ashegan. More power to you.

I hope others are reading closely what you are saying and are willing to understand it.

Truth is nothing by itself. Truth is there only when it is APPLIED.

The crying need of Kaliyuga is to APPLY the truth and not to just discuss it till the cows come home.

Conditions can only improve by AS-ISing them. That requires a close examination to really understand the present conditions. That is the truth.

If faith makes that possible then well and good. But faith as mere HOPE simply promotes a "waitingness" and a lethargy.

If you just wait you are not going to get anywhere. God helps those who help themselves, i.e., who are not lethargic but actively looking at their present conditions to understand them fully and improve them.

Is the present faith inspiring people in India to do that? Or, is it keeping them in "waitingness" and apathy?

It should be remembered that it is only Tradition that has kept our Dharma alive today.Veda is not a book and it is passed on from guru to shishya in decyplic succession.This Tradition believes that it is only the great Veda vedavyasa who compiled the Vedas and also the puranas.This is not my opinion but this was told by my great guru under whom I learnt some veda mantras and got initiation.God and Veda are synonymous!

Dear ashegan, please note that as long as the jiva is in a material body it is not possible to understand God/Veda through logic and reasoning!
As long as you are embodied you are in a relative world.If Theertha is filthy for you it is really rejuvinating for a real Bhakta.A True Bhakta knows that Veda and God are same.Veda is Apourusheya.So one must read Veda with real Bhakti in order to understand the Truth perfectly.Spiritual knowledge is not easy to obtain.With our limited senses and faulty equipment.
Puranas, especially the Bhagavatam is definitely not for a so called "Jnani".Realise that once the Jiva is engulfed in material (embodied) he is in a relative world and whatever may be his level of intelligence he cannot understand God/Veda by just empirical analysis.

I will write more later...Harihi OM

Ashegan,
If I remember correctly you celebrated your 18th
Birthday not to long ago.
If that is so I am looking forward to the wisdom you will present to the world in your elder years.
The wisdom you posses now is humbling and beautiful.

I think that it is perfectly acceptable for some to allow suffering to go on and do nothing about it.
But some where born to lead, lead the miserable in to joy. Lead the suffering in to peace.
And through that leadership, become.

To All,
A great sage is present in this forum, take the time to appreciate that.
Om Allow Allow Allow OM

Dear Suresh,

Hats off to you for the the most humbling and wisest message. But alas, if only some people in this forum armed with the "SO CALLED JNANA" to their teeth could understand what you are saying. No, never! It is only Prajnana which will in due course make them realize that they have confused their ahamkar for buddhi and jnana. Their overly inflated ahamkar is the direct result of their associations with hateful and dangerous cults and samajas, no matter what good names you may give them. Once one joins such groups, it is easy bait for the useless ahamkar which is in EVERYBODY as you have rightly mentioned.This ahmakar itself assumes the postion of God and becomes pray to all kinds of mischief which is confused for wisdom and intelligence. They arrogate the good works done actually by God upon their ahamkar.

Suresh please continue to post the wise messages that sprout from your Heart.

"I think that it is perfectly acceptable for some to allow suffering to go on and do nothing about it."
Shri Richard-ji, May I know to whom you are referring this to? I am so sure that No true Hindu, atleast Nobody in this Forum would like suffering to go on!

I cannot imagine why messages have to be misinterpreted. It is commendable that good works be encouraged. It is the error of the ahamkar when it says "I am helping the less fortunate". Such self pride does not free the spiritual student from karmic bondage. One has to enquire as to "who is actually doing the helping?" I never said that the poor should not be helped. Such misinterpretaion of messages reflects the genuine spiritual depth of the authors of such messages.

Mere memorization of the vedas, following a new age Guru blindly, or the study of the Bhagavad Gita alone may not be enough to put the ahamkar in its rightful place. A spiritual student should try to correct himself/herself first and foremost and not others. This self-pride is very prominent among the aryas and a couple of other Godly personalities of the forum.

Suresh said:

"please note that as long as the jiva is in a material body it is not possible to understand God/Veda through logic and reasoning!"

Who says you learn the truth through logic and reasoning. I don't think that Ashegan is saying that.

Truth is apprehended by LOOKING. Logic and reasoning are mere instruments. They at best help you determine where to LOOK. But the LOOKING is done by the live Being and not by some instrument.

It is possible to apprehend the truth while one is in the body residing in this relative world. Vedvyasa did it, didn't he?

Namste Jha,

We don't show praise for ignorance.
Neither does anybody else on this forum.
It doesn’t appear like that.

Can you prove only you know what is knowledge and what is ignorance?
Did I ever say that only I know what knowledge is and what ignorance is?

We don't follow Guru's instructions blindly. We always try to be a Nachiketa.
How do you know you are being successful in that?
Why else would I be here trashing all that is illogical and stupid?

We are on this message board to discuss our views. In a discussion we might support or oppose the ideas of other people.
None of the above calls for using profane languages. Does it?
My views can be irreligious to you. Does it mean that all that pleases you is a good talk?

You might even consider shit as prasad because of your blind beliefs.
Show us a single person accepting shit as prasaad or withdraw your statement as false and derogatory.
How would a blind belief know that shit cannot be taken as prasad? We call some beliefs blind because they require no reasoning/intellect/logic/knowledge/sense. If one can consider dirty water as teertam why not consider shit as prasad?

I never accept it because I use Jnana.
How can you use insulting and abusive language….
Had Truth been on your side you wouldn’t felt that way.

It is unwise to shower praise for ignorance.
That is true. Is it wise to consider oneself as the sole authority on what is knowledge and what is ignorance?
When did I say that I am the sole authority? Is it wise to remain stagnant?

And your gods are living in riches. Why don't you pray Kubera?
Have you ever seen any Hindu sitting idly and praying to Kubera in the hope that s/he would become rich?
I didn’t say that Hindu sits idly. What I am saying that why don’t you pray kubera for wealth and anyway blind belief doesn’t oppose it?

Has anyone here made a suggestion to the effect that praying to Kubera is a way to become rich?
Why don’t you do when your god Venkateshwara has done so?

I can appreciate if you suggest that ordinary Hindus should be made to understand that nothing is achieved without proper karma. But you are not justified in suggesting that participants on this forum accept such ridiculous ideas as you attribute to Hinduism.
Why are they trying to defend foolishly when I attack Hinduism (Corrupted)?

Is having sex with Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama in heaven called Moksha?
Where is it said that those going to heaven will have sex with Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama?
Then what are they doing in heaven? Are they trying to please your king of gods Indra?

Why your jnana, common sense and Vedic knowledge makes you ask such obviously absurd qeustions?
Isn’t the Hindu concept of heaven absurd?

My method leads to the realization of the utlimate reality.
Don't forget that this is merely an assumption, a belief until you realize the UR. Your method will be of no help to you if you just use it to look down on others.
I see a person who is drowning in the sea of blind faith. I am trying hard to save him. How can I save him if he doesn’t put any efforts?

Your method leads you into the hands of Rambha, Urvasi, Menaka and Tilottama.
Can you justify this statement based on jnana and common sense?
Refer your illogical puranas.

Sri Ramesh, if you intend to discuss your ideas here, let everyone know those ideas.
How can I sow the seeds without removing the weeds?

So far you have totally failed in your own declared mission.
How would a person who is blinded by ignorance (blind faith) know my mission?

Ramesh

namaste to all

vinaire, your buddhi is alive and active,and will really help you in the search for that nebulous truth we admire so much but haven't actually experienced...
as you say, the almighty helps those who help themselves.. that sums up much of my argument.. thanks...
we must never be lazy and accept the status quo if others are suffering, be it spiritually or physically...

swami agnivesh once wrote "People whose hearts are set ablaze with compassion
and truth need to devote themselves to the task of impacting our society
from a spiritual perspective and produce the fruits of the resultant
transformation so that the religious establishment is forced to take note
of it. While religion can be the exclusive preserve of the religious,
spirituality is under nobody's monopoly. He who gives a glass of water to
quench the thirst of another is spiritually more evolved than those who
chant their scriptures with their eyes closed on the giant agony of our
world."

his lecture on vedic socialism was really enlightening... he also wrote "Rather than recognize and develop the transformative dimension of religion
-that is, the spiritual dynamism of religion- the priestly class in all
religions prefer to promote its escapist aspects. Religious obscurantism is
born out of this outlook. 'Obscurantism, as the word implies, involves a
disengagement with the world of realities. It obscures the element of human
responsibility and the need to respond in practical terms. Rather than take
policy decision, for example, to wipe out illiteracy from India and pursue
it vigorously through administrative action, we could go on chanting
Saraswati Vandana. We could go on worshipping the goddess of wealth, and
yet not develop a healthy work culture or sense of disciplined management
of our material resources. Instead, we could improvise all sorts of rituals
and practices by which the gods could be coaxed and cajoled to overlook our
lapses and continue to bless us in spite of ourselves!"

i hope others found that as lofty and true as i did...

to translate the epic wisdom and faith that we have inherited into real tangible spirituality (helping to alleviate the burdens of pain and dukha in the world around us) is the greatest act in this all too selfish yuga... i hope i can apply such teachings to my life as well, which has seen its fair share of dessicated ritualism...

sri suresh, i appreciate your reply... to aryas, maharshi vyas was not the person that wrote the puraans.. we believe it was written by various priests and scholars over a wide range of time (post-vedic of course) and that they used the names of great and wise vedic rshis to give them authority and authenticity... but that is just one viewpoint... hindus will always regard him as the maker of the puraans... we cannot accept though, that one so versed in the ved could spout such nonsensical fabrications as some of the puraans contain... (btw there are a few puranic myths that i've failed to understand on a metaphoric level.. i wondered if i could ask you to explain them to me..)

the jivatma is going to be in the darkness of flesh for a while.. is it going to ignore its innate capabilities of study and comprehension and wait till it's disembodied to draw near in understanding to the almighty? i hope not for our sake... the faculties that we have been blessed with are a boon to us... and by use of reason and logic etc. combined with faith in what lies beyond our limited manas, we can reach a level of spiritual identity...

please read my recent comments on teertam.. they more accurately reflect my opinion on the practise..

what i meant in my earlier argument was that god almighty has given us the powers of reason and comprehension so that we may put them to use in understanding the universe around us, and to come closer to him... there is no reason why should be looked down upon these gifts or not to use them... yes, bhakt and prem are beautiful ideas.. some of the most moving moments of my life have been because of these... but alone, they cannot be much use spiritually...

in the same way as the parts of a chariot come together to create movement, so do the various margas of jnan, karma, vivek, bhakt, prem etc. combine to create spiritual movement in the right direction... and just as it takes physical strength to assemble the mighty chariot, so does it take spiritual strength to balance those margs inside oneself...

what i'm advocating is a holistic well-rounded approach to swadhyaaya of the ved and spirtual practise at large... please don't place me at an extreme for the sake of argument... the individual has a tendency to categorise the stances of others so as to facilitate debate... aryas have been assumed to be colder and jnanic in our philosophy.. that is a preconcieved notion that must be discarded..

i have passed no judgement on any sanatanas here.. i see that the approaches of the members of this forum are hugely varied, from the cool objective 'scientology' you accuse some of, to the heated violence of religious passion in others.. i hope i will be given the same unbiased treatment i have shown to you..

brahma parmatma revealed the chaturveda for the good of mankind.. that was his mercy unto us.. that is why we love and praise him as the giver of knowledge... i believe the veda is his word, and to study his word with firm bhakt, shraddha and a discerning sharp buddhi is to come close to him.. that is what we should all aim toward regardless of whether we believe the veda is god or not...

umm, richard, i just turned 17.. but thanks alot for your good words... it is the encouragement of elders that give the youth fire and vigor to play an active role in their dharma...

i believe the prayer 'tamaso maa jyotir gamaya' should be on the lips of every hindu.. that we all make the concerted effort to lead ourselves from the tamas of religious/spiritual indolence into the jyot of realisation... and if others are generous enough to help in our upliftment, then twice-blessed are they...

(if anybody mistook the three ealier long messages from me to be the same message accidently repeated - please know they are each seperate responses to sri mukunda, murali and jha respectively)

Dear Suresh,

How are your beliefs helping you alleviate suffering in the society?

I am talking about alleviating suffering in the human society and not just the individual. There are now over 6 billion people on this earth.

This is not a challenge. I am just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Thank you wise Jha, for the message to Ramesh which I will take as on my behalf if you do not mind. Boy, messages are getting longer and more frequent. I may not be able to respond to all the false allegations being dumped on me unfairly by the so called aryas and other western educated self styled men of God.

Sri Jha,Prem,Suresh,Hariharan and others please keep up your courageous efforts to correctly explain the enchanting Hindu dharma to those influenced negatively by new age cults and samajas, Gurus, Pseudo Gurus, Zen Buddhism and the likes. May everyone speedily reach the domain of MahaVishnu by whatever path he or she chooses.

Dear Murali,

What is the difference between your favorite word "ahamkar" and the true self?

Why can't you accept that the true self can also say, "I am helping the less fortunate."

What is wrong with taking responsibility?

I think it was Ramakrishna Paramhamsa who said, if you dwell on sin all the time you will become a sinner. Why are you dwelling on ahamkar all the time?

Please don't bear hate toward others. That hate is coming more and more through the last few posts from you.

No can truly help another with bhakti and prema unless one has humbled his own ahamkar. Such help is sacred and filled with blissful love. A realized sage like Sri Ramana Maharishi helped the entire world with his resounding silence. But materialists cannot grasp this wonderful phenomena. Only a true Hindu can understand this.

Sri Suresh you have helped many in this forum by your humbling messages above. Your messages are brief but they are brimming with wisdom. This is in contrast to some lenghty messages which are not worth an ounce of clay. It is not the quantity of the message but the quality that matters. Keep up the good work.

I hope that Sri Suresh understands that there is a wide gulf between wishful thinking and practical application.

In this universe it takes a lot more than just the wishful thinking to attain one's objectives of bringing others up along with one.

It is still not very clear to me how the "faith" that he is supporting is currently alleviating suffering in the society. Maybe he can explain.

Dearest Vinaire,

Please do not categorize this as hate. I am surprised you did not consider the most abusive language of Ramesh towards Hindus as hate. Was that Love? How come you have not preached him to post messages decently with love?

The ahamkar of Murali or Vinaire is not the true Self or the atma. The ahamkar instead of being subservient to the atma or God arrogates to itself the postion of atma. Where is the need for the True Self in the body/mind of Vinaire to say "I am helping others"? There is no question of "the other" for the True Self in Vinaire. There is only place for SELF, which is the entire Universe. So when everybody is the entire Universe who is helping others but oneself?

But the ahamkar of arrogant people takes pride in helping others because ahamkar (thought) breeds in duality. The problem of ahamkar has to be tackled before one can realize that one is the atma and not the ahamkar. As long as the ahamkar is very prominent the ever shining atma which is the "true self" is blocked from the view so to speak. The atma is very slippery and sensitive and ahamkar has no place in it whatsoever.

Ahamkar is not my favorite word. I have to use it under the present context where self pride is being so prominently dispalyed by certain participants. My favorite words are jnana, prema, bhakti, Prajnana and so on. What is the point in saying "allow, allow, OM, allow if the basic freedom to choose one's path of religion is denied? There are different paths of jnana, karma and prema/bhakti. But certain participants are not allowing others to choose the path that suits them most. Is this tolerance?

Shree Rama
As Suresh said we sanathanas believe that Veda Vyasa is the compiler of the vedas and the puranas. He shortened the vedas for the kaliyuga and broke up the puranas into 18 and divided these 18 into sattavik, rajasik and tamasik puranas. It must be remembered the Veda Vyasa did not write either the puranas or vedas but rather compiled them. The puranas in most instances when refering to heaven refer to svarga which is the realm of the devatas, these devatas are not God, they are jivas with elevated positions due to karma from previous lives. There exist only one Supreme Being who is the source of all these other beings. Purana means ancient and so hindus think that the puranas are their very ancient past and not necessarily of this world or dimension. It is my belief that the puranas as they exist now are not the original puranas but are rather corrupted versions of them with interpolations over the ages and same with the manusmriti.
To many of us hindus, especially those who have read or understand various vedanta philosophies, accept and know that Brahman is formless but we believe that Brahman takes on form for the mind to grasp and worship. It is near impossible to contemplate on a formless being, only the greatest of human minds can do this.
As it has been said on this forum, when in the mundane world we have a relative sense of everything. Ramesh has spoken about shit and urine and other such things, it is only relatively wrong because we have this idea that it is dirty and so on. This is same shit that we think as dirty and such, we use in homams and yagnas as a purifer and disinfectent(this is vedic). It is scientifically proven that shit and urine are in fact clean and disinfectents. A true yogi sees past all of this and all they see is the paraatma Shriman Narayana residing in the hearts of all things as the antaryami. To this person a piece of shit is equivalent to the greatest and most beautiful gem or gold in all the universe. This is the ideal that we must strive for, to end duality as it were which is seeing God not in his modes or prakaras but picturing him in some throne in the sky instead we should see him residing in our very souls as the witness who never leaves our side and is always there for us. We are never alone, we need to close our eyes and feel that pure presence and love flow through us and prevade us.
As Shri Krishna Paraatma says:
Bahunam janmanamunthye
Jnanavan Mamprabhadyathye
Vaasudeva Sarvam iti
Samahatma sudhorlabaha

At the conclusion of many births the man of wisdom resorts to Me, holding that Vaasudeva is everything. This high souled man is very hard to find.
This person who sees that Supreme Being residing in everything including the material and immaterial, the chetana and achetana, jada and ajada, the souls and universes concludes everything is dependent on that Supreme Being and ultimately resorts to him as the sole refuge, this is the true yogi and jnani.

"By knowing this all else is known"
By knowing this reality that the Supreme is all, inso far as he is the antaryami and cause of our existance, all else is known.


I agree with every single person that said that if one's philosophy or religion is not applied on a social level then that philosophy is useless. We can sit here all day talking about hinduism or arya samaj, but if we don't apply this knowledge then we have not understood our respective paths. This really upsets me that this day and age we see more and more "hindus" (i am including all the other sects in it too, like arya samaj and others)come to a western world and essentially stockpile huge amounts of money as a doctor, scienctist, professors, business men and so on yet never contribute money to their homeland for its protection and social needs. The drive and influence of capitalism has prevaded much of our mentalities and actions, the puranas and other books speak about great men in the days of yore, who would give away all of their wealth to help society, the kings of yore used to give away wealth regularly to the subjects of the kingdom.
Nowadays, people don't do anything unless it serves them better. We have social groups like RSS, VHP, Arya Samaj and so on, yet many of us don't even support them in their social activities(i am speaking generally). The Orissa cyclone that has recently damaged and ravaged our motherland is being attended to by these various groups, i noticed here many people would just look at the paper and say one word like " this is sad" and that is it, they have the money and power to help fix it but they don't. I belong to a hindu students council here at UC Irvine, and we are trying to have fundraisers for this Orissa cyclone, but the sad part is that most indians here, especially in the indian club don't even care about it. I spoke to their president and he was not that keen on doing anything and especially with a "hindu" organization. But regardless of this it is my goal to make this happen. It is our duty the people who have an understanding of our faith and background to make changes in the environments all around the world, but starting in our great ancient motherland Bharata. Let each of us try and bring people to this forum to contribute and let us form a bond in which we can support each other and use this support system to foster change and reform in Bharata and soon the rest of the world. We each have unique skills that we can bring to this ideal, individually these skills will make minor changes but collectively we can change the world.

Ashwathgryanthye Rathagryanthye
Vishnugryanthye Vasundhara
Ksheerasa Dhaarayishyaami
Rakshasamam Pade Pade

Kaayana Vaacha Manasindrayi Aayva
Buddhyatmanava Prakrityaswabavath
Karomi Yad Yath Sakalam Parasmai
Shriman Narayanaithi Samarpayami
(please excuse any mistakes or wrongs that i have made throughout this post)
Harihi Om
Shree Rama Jayam
Shree Ramanujaya Namah
-Mukunda

I have not answered your question of "taking resposibilty" which I will do so later because I have to get out of this forum presently.

sri murali ji, i see that you feel cornered and on the peripheries of this discussion.. you don't have to reply if you don't feel ready to... read, ponder and reread the messages of your brothers on this forum before hissing they are confused, arrogant upstarts who have no right discussing religion here...

and as when anyone is cornered, the fear (bhayam) that results causes him to snap at even the hand that offers comfort and support...
suresh bhai has become a sort of proverbial salve in the heat of this discussion, so you grasp at his words and ooze praise, directing all animocity to the others and myself... suresh bhai has made good sound remarks and deserves a good response, that is true but you misdirect your building wrath (krodh) to us...

i suggest you relax and meditate on this issue until the suspicion and paranoia melt away and then we can start interacting in a less hostile way... it saddens me that you see me on such a base level that i mistake my own lowly ego for the god i praise repeatedly here...

we are the jivatma, the individual soul that exists in the vastness of the paramatma, the greater soul or god... when we act, it is our selves that are acting... we alone will suffer for the sinful acts and be rewarded for the good... while we are all connected in the living web of souls, we act as individuals and others are not responsible for our doings... when we perform a good act, it is by the influence of the indr in us, the good part, the creamy spiritual nougat that exists internally of every soul... god is not acting through us.. he is witnessing our deeds and will give us the proper reward for those... to be immersed in egoistic thinking that 'i' did this, it's 'my' great achievement, the rewards are 'mine' - that is definately not good... don't be attached to the fruit of action, but act...

the way your earlier post sounded was that we should not engage actively in helping others, and that the hand of god will play its part... that is what i assumed you meant.. and i'm sure many others did as well... go back and read it thoroughly..
i guess it seems my whole commentary on social responsibility is a bit wasted then..

the virulent attack on samaaj's is uncalled for... samaaj means 'society'.. you yourself belong to one... the whole hindu world is kind of like one big samaaj... don't distance yourself by recoiling into a shell, murali ji... neither i nor ramesh nor anybody else is trying to be a biblical samson and pull down the stone temple that dominates your heart and mind... but if you let some outside talent have a chance, the walls of that temple would only be the richer for it, gaining in experience and knowledge of what others believe...

methinks your anger is blinding you to your own words on this thread and you show your teeth at those you feel are victimising you... as you say, murali, are you the ahamkar that is being victimised?
i realise the huge response i gave to you earlier was a bit much and tough to respond to calmly and academically... as such, this time i will make no large comeback.. instead, when you have decided to enter this discussion in the right spirit of mutualism and open-minded receptiveness, i will post more detailed arguments...
the hate and bile i see in your later posts do not warrant much of a long civilised response...

shaantir bhava, murali... may mitr-vishnu (the all-pervading, most beloved) open your eyes that are so tightly shut to those your fear makes you feel are threats, and help us to communicate more effectively...

We have to give utmost priority to Alleviating sufferring, Eliminatig poverty, Improving the standard of Life etc., and No sensible person will deny that.
Sri Vinaire ..It is to be noted that this has nothing to do with understanding God/Veda, on which I was emphasising.
Mind is the Root-cause for all this delusion.It seperates Man from God or Absolute reality/Brahman or whatever you call it.The purpose of Sadhana is to conquer this mind.Body and Mind are interdependant.By controlling the body you can control the mind.By feeding the body with Yajnashishta/Prasad, the body becomes purified which will inturn purify/control the mind.After reaching this state of perfect balance one should take to studying Veda.It should be noted that, Veda once it is received from a Guru becomes Veda mantra and this Veda mantra should be chanted (not read) with proper accent.Incessant chanting brings serenity and humbleness.Makes the sadhaka more matured.

More later...Harihi Om.

Dear Murali,

You did bring up this excellent question that made me stop in my tracks and think, “Why didn’t I characterize Ramesh’s openly abusive language as hate, but I am characterizing your veiled hints as hate?”

That is an excellent question.

I do not deny that Ramesh’s language is abusive or rather confrontational. But he is very clear about what his intentions are. He is not hiding anything. He is picking out specific things in Hinduism to criticize. He is not saying all Hinduism is bad. There is obviously, disagreement on what he is criticizing. But as I see in this case everything is clear and above board.

On the other hand, I see you generalizing the target of your criticism as all “Samajas,” all “new age” Gurus. Here you haven’t clarified your target of criticism. It is general, diffused and confused. You are mixing all good and bad together and denying it all as a package. You are not being specific. I think that very generalization made me use the word “hate” in this context.

I hope this clarifies for you where I am coming from.

Master Ashegan,

I have already said that my ahamkar has no place in the Palace of Vishnu. I cannot be more humble than this however much I try. Your atma is ever in the protection of Lord Vishnu, just as Vinaire's or Ramesh's. My criticism is only directed at your ahankar. You are free to post your messages just as I am. But do not expect everyone to liken you to a Sage. Go ahead and mock at my ahamkar a trillion times. It does not affect my atma which is ever in peace and love. This knowledge I owe to the magnificent Hindu dharma, which is none other than SHIVA, without the help of aryas.

Namaste Muralidhar Raoji,

Thank you wise Jha,
1. You said Jnana is an attribute of Ahankar.
2. Now you saying Jha is wise.
So, according to you THANK YOU WISE JHA = THANK YOU AHANKAR JHA.

for the message to Ramesh which I will take as on my behalf if you do not mind.
Do you want Jhaji say "Thank you wise Muralidhar Raoji"?

Boy, messages are getting longer and more frequent.
Boy, nothing seems break the strong wall of ignorance (blind belief) you have built.

I may not be able to respond to all the false allegations being dumped on me unfairly by the so called aryas and other western educated self styled men of God.
We were blaming Puranas that has corrupted your brain. Nothing we said was meant to hurt you.

Sri Jha,Prem,Suresh,Hariharan and others please keep up your courageous efforts to correctly explain the enchanting Hindu dharma to those influenced negatively by new age cults and samajas, Gurus, Pseudo Gurus, Zen Buddhism and the likes.
We are not telling you anything new. It is all there in Hinduism. There is lot of dust (Puranas, Bhagvat) on it. We are trying to remove the dust and show you the gem (Hinduism – Uncorrupted) you have.

May everyone speedily reach the domain of MahaVishnu by whatever path he or she chooses.
We have to make sure that the path is the correct path and it leads us to Maha Vishnu. For this we require Jnana.

Ramesh

My dear brothers,
I have for some time watched in horror as personal attacks have dominated the disucssion in this board, especially amongst participants who have basic disagreements. I have, in the last few postings here, seen more civility, love and compassion coming from all sides of the issues at hand, and I pray that such enlightened exchange continues. I sincerely hope that our discussions here continue along the lines (and continue to progress) that have recently been seen between Vinaire and Murali. While my personal views may conflict with some few positions of each of these esteemed and respectd memebers of this forum, it is a great joy to my heart to see the discussions beginning to transcend personally agendas and attacks. My dear brothers and sisters, we all have so much more in common that we have at odds with each other. Let us openly embrace each other and make a concerted, sincere effort to not only understand, but appreciate the views of each of us who offer various viewpoints here. There os a tremendous opportunity for this forum to bring us together and appreciate the diversity within our complete unity. Let us continue this recent change in approach to our differing understandings of the spiritual traditions of bharatvarsha. I am sorry that such urgings must come from a westerner like myself, but I beg you to understand that it is the inner self that makes on a hindu or not.... Being a hindu has NOTHING to do with what family you were born into, what traditions you were taught. Being a hindu, a follower of vedic tradition, a citizen of the universe all have much more to do with your intentions and your compassiona and your acceptance of the validity of other forms of transcendence and growth. I applaud the great advances made in understanding each other among the various members of this forum in recent weeks. And I pray that such openess, acceptance and understanding continues. For this is what will make Sanatana Dharma (or whatever term you choose) to become the preeiminate and most logical and workable spiritual systems of this new age. Following such a plan of action requires great compasssion and understanding ont he part of those who are willing to move forward in reviving the importance of Vedic application of life in our present day world. Our difference are as nothing compared to the many things we all share in common. We should all join hands and celebrate the sivam (goodness) and sundarya (beauty) that is our ancient and enlightened traditions. In accepting this idea, we can see the prejudice, the hatred, the smug sense of superiority melt away like toxins that are leached from a pure source of energy (or power, or understanding).

The above statments will, in my opinion, solve the majority of the opposition, in-fighting and failure of hindus on this forum to join together working toward a common, justifiable and efficacious goal. Let us set aside our difference. Let us see ourselves as allies who each have a different approach and a different part to play in the continuance and growth of Sanatana Dharma. Let us set aside our few and minor disagreements, and embrace each other in the sure knowledge that such UNITY among the DIVINLY ESTABLISHED DIVERSITY is the only thing that we bring us together for a common cause. No house divided can stand against itself.

I often feel an outsider, and that I have no right to post anything on this forum because I am not a native of Bharatvarsha. But although my father was scots-irish (whose pre-christian practices has vedic roots in the pagan/vedic distant past), My maternal heritage is Romanichal (gypsy) who's orgins and childhood teachings to me are of the most ancient teachings of Sanatana Dharma (not to mention recent DNA testsing have proven that Gypsies originated in India more than 1000 years ago.

My dearest brothers and sisters, Bhai JHA and many others have carefully chosen thier postings to say basically what I have been saying. For that I am most grateful.

Now many of you may say that since I am not a pure-bred son of Bharatvarsha, that I have no say in these matters. But the truth of the matter is that this is my life. Reject me for being a mlechha if you like, but I promise all of you that when you young folks have finished arguingin about Sanatana Dharma and reach the abode where I will have long ago left behind this body to inhabit, you will finally find that what we share in common, in love, in respect, in honor and in valour far outways any differnces we may have in approach, circumstances of birth, etc. I may not have been born of Bharatiya parents or on the soil of Bharatvarsha herself.... but you will never find a greater defender of Sanatana Dharma and the way of life which it entails. I humbly invite all you comments.

With great love and respect to each and every one of you, I offer my respect, my love, and if it every becomes necessary, the sacrifice of this insignificant incarnation in the hopes of our effots of understanding will make itself available to us once again in the future. To all of you I wish the very best, and no matter you views. whether you can agree with me or not at this point, I KNOW that in time, we will embrace each other, chuckle over our respective foolishness, and end up in working together to assist all peoples in walking the path of truth, love and reality. Until my next posting, I remain the devoted servant of each and every one of you, sending the grace of the gods and the love in my heart to all of you. May you all learn, grow, prosper, understand and make the most of the many great and transcendtal lessons you will without a doubt learn, so long as your minds are open to alternative ideas, and your hearts are open to the salvific and healing love of your fellow human beings.

I thank each and every one of you who have participated on this forum, both those agreed with me as well as those who vehementally disagreed and denigrated my belies.

sahanabhavatu sahanabunaktu!

YOU ARE THE CREATORS OF OUR FUTURE. NEVER BACK DOWN ON YOUR CONVICTIONS, AND NEVER BE AFRAID TO RECONSIDER THOSE CONVICTIONS.

My love goes out to all of you on this magnificent and glorious day which god has provided for us.

sivaya paramesh varaya. shaseshe karayanamao. Bhavayah gunashambhava. Shiva tandavaya namao.

Ramesh,

If you post messages like Jha, Suresh, Prem, Dr.SSR, Hariharan and others, I would also appreciate your postings and compliment you as a wise participant.But what can I say about your posts the way they are? Only Vinaire and Ashegan can appreciate them.

Sri Hariharan,

A true Hindu can belong to any race, color, country, caste, creed...........Sri Hariharan please post without inhibitions. I appreciate them wholeheartedly.

Fondly

Just a point about Prasadam and teertham,(holy food and holy water).

It is clearly mentioned in the texts that the Prasadam and the Tirtha should be taken only when fresh and it should not be consumed if stale and is not "Akhadya" ie. non-eatable.
Also there are proper steps of how to prepare the
Prasad and tirtha .for eg : "PanchAmrut" has to be prepared adding 5 items in proper combination.

These are combinations are actually helpful in prevention of many diseases as has been found by many western university research gruops.

Also one should realise that one does not eat the prasad or tirtha in Kilos (stomach full) ie. just a sip or two is enough and even if it is contaminated (according to some people) it does not make much difference on physical health but has psychological and spiritual benifits.

The so called blind faith is much helpful for society that no faith ,atleast some people will deter from harmful actions.

Regards
Sadhak

Namste Sri Ramesh,

It doesn't appear like that.(that nobody on this forum shows praise for ignorance)

Can you say that what appears to you is truth and that is the only truth?

Did I ever say that only I know what knowledge is and what ignorance is?

Please say clearly whether you think you know what knowledge is and what ignorance is. Please also say whether you think that only you know that.

Why else would I be here trashing all that is illogical and stupid?

I don't know. Your approach of "trashing" what you find as illogical and stupid is not sound unless you believe only you can discriminate knowledge from ignorance and unless you are incapable of better ways to deal with what appears to you, but may not be, illogical and stupid.

None of the above calls for using profane languages. Does it?
My views can be irreligious to you. Does it mean that all that pleases you is a good talk?

You are avoiding the issue here. What is profane and abusive language remains so irrespective of what one considers as religious. Please answer directly, do you think that you cannot discuss your views in a decent, not necessarily religious, language?

Show us a single person accepting shit as prasaad or withdraw your statement as false and derogatory.
How would a blind belief know that shit cannot be taken as prasad?

You are avoiding the question which is not what a jnani should do.

We call some beliefs blind because they require no reasoning/intellect/logic/knowledge/sense.

If something can be determined based on reasoning, intellect, logic, knowledge etc. then it is not called faith, blind or otherwise (please see my first post in this thread). I am not suggesting or approving all sorts of absurdities in the name of faith but I cannot condemn any faith confined to an individual, which the individual finds useful in his/her spiritual journey.

If one can consider dirty water as teertam why not consider shit as prasad?

This inference is not supported by perception and hence it is absurd. This is irresponsible extrapolation.

Had Truth been on your side you wouldn't felt that way.

Please, the issue is how to handle ignorance, by insults, abuses, trashing or by reason and persuasion. Please understand that Truth does not take side. You can continue abusing others in the name of truth but if your interest is in establishing truth and removing ignorance, you wouldn't succeed this way.

When did I say that I am the sole authority?

Are you an authority, or the sole authority? If not, how can you so confidently declare others as fools and abuse them?

Is it wise to remain stagnant?

Most certainly not.

I didn't say that Hindu sits idly.

Isn't it interesting that you don't even allow inference and reasoning on what you say and are only responsible for only the literal meaning of your words. Why don't you apply same principle to others and limit your comment on what others say, not what you think they blieve?

What I am saying that why don't you pray kubera for wealth and anyway blind belief doesn't oppose it?

Because that will make me idle which you don't suggest Hindus to do. Please correct your understanding on faith.

Has anyone here made a suggestion to the effect that praying to Kubera is a way to become rich?
Why don't you do when your god Venkateshwara has done so?

That doesn't answer my question.

Why are they trying to defend foolishly when I attack Hinduism (Corrupted)?

They defend what to them is not foolish. Since you have not said that you are the sole authority on what is knowledge and what is ignorance, you must accept the possibility that others may not be wrong. In any case, you sound foolish to others and others sound foolish to you. So, where do you go from there - on a endless path of insults and abuses?

Then what are they doing in heaven? Are they trying to please your king of gods Indra?

Don't ask me. It is for you to justify what you say as a jnani.

Isn't the Hindu concept of heaven absurd?

Puranic concept of heaven is not only different from Vedic and Upanishadic but it is more worldly. The description is more colorful and symbolic, in line with the style of Puranas which is easily comprehensible to the ordinary masses. Taken on face value, these concepts don't sound in agreement with Vedic idea of heaven. However, knowing the Vedic concepts of heaven, we know how to interpret the puranic concept of heaven and this has to be explained to ordinary people.

I refuse to accept that Hindu concept is only limited to Puranas, as you seem to imply, and I don't think it is absurd. But I agree with you that there are people who take these concepts without further thinking and that needs to be corrected.

I see a person who is drowning in the sea of blind faith. I am trying hard to save him. How can I save him if he doesn't put any efforts?

S/he can't put in any effort if you knock him/her down unconscious with you trashing and insults. You have to find better ways for his cooperation since you know that you can save nobody without his/her cooperation.

Can you justify this statement based on jnana and common sense?
Refer your illogical puranas.

You refer to it and justify yourself. That is your responsibility.

Sri Ramesh, if you intend to discuss your ideas here, let everyone know those ideas.
How can I sow the seeds without removing the weeds?
You are not careful enough not to remove seeds along with weeds. (Can you see the symbolism in what you say? Will it be appropriate if others laugh at it without proper understanding?)

How would a person who is blinded by ignorance (blind faith) know my mission?

Please say what is your mission, so that I don't have to be ignorant on this next time.

Sri Hariharan,

My reference to certain westerners did not refer to you. I was saying this in reference to the Hindu customs like taking a dip in the sacred Ganga for spiritual salvation and other practices. It is difficult for many western people to understand this and they usually brand them as superstition and ridicule those who practice them. Even some Hindus in this forum are insulting those who practice them. I am only against this habit of ridiculing and pretending to be superior. Hence so many posts to arya samaj. Personally I don't care to what religion anyone belongs as long as we are learning from Hindu dharma in this Hindu forum. Even though you are a westerner I am sure you know much more about sanathana dharma than I.

Sri Ashegan,

We agree that no proof can be given for God, Soul etc. These must be accepted on faith, as positive assumption and there should be an effort to validate these assumptions by direct perception. These remain blind faith until verified personally. That is why Sri Aurobindo said that faith precedes experience.

My point is that reason, intellect and logic must be emphasized because for most part of our spiritual journey these are our best guide. However, we must acknowledge that the underlying truth that is sought through reason, intellect, logic etc. have no basis but blind faith. All of Veda is truth but this acceptance is on blind faith, that our sages did realize what is recorded there. As a Hindu I firmly accept Vedas as truth but I am aware that most of Vedic truth cannot be shown objectively through intellectual aids. The realization of Vedic truth is the final step but the journey is undertaken on faith. I am not suggesting that you are unaware of all this but it is often notices that through an overemphasis on reason and intellect, the very foundation of intellect, the very truth which is accepted on faith and sought through intellectual aid is undermined.

I am suggesting that there can be no Hinduism (or Arya dharma if you please) without faith. In this, our dharma is not different from many other religions. The difference is in the assertion that what is accepted on faith in Hinduism can be realized, can be demonstrated to oneself (but not to others). The difference is in the assertion that Reason cannot contradict Instinct and Perception cannot contradict Reason if we have correct understanding and if we realize the truth.

You said, "in the kali yug faith in the truth isn't enough anymore... we have to rationalise and nit-pick at things until our limited buddhi feels it's satisfied...}

I agree in essence but I would caution against relying too much on feelings of "limited buddhi". Please understand that the very basis of spirituality, the Spirit, the existence of an Ultimate Reality is not accepted by some of the most rational minds. I am referring to those who try to understand reality by modern scientific methods. What can never be rationalized by buddhi is grasped as obvious by Intuition. Please understand that alternative to buddhi is not foolishness and absurdities accepted as faith. Please understand that none of the Vedic truth have been obtained by rational buddhi. Let us not be irrational but let us not become slaves of abstract rationality, not because it is flawed but because there are more powerful means such as Intuition and Perception that operate on faith.

If we try to follow the marga that suits us best in a manner that does not contradict or unknowingly invalidates others margas then we can be sure that we are not irrational while ensuring that we don't loose on faith and intuition.

Dear Ashegan, you are right that even a thousand dips in Ganga cannot wash away your sins, just as dying in Varanasi cannot ensure heaven. But please take a trip to Uttarkashi, Gangotri and Gomukh and you will find that it does create feeling in your heart which is most conducive for dharma. A dip in Ganga doesn't directly wash away one's sins but it is invariably accompanied by visit to nearby temples, donations to the poor and needy, feeding poor people and so on. All these does help accumulate some good karma. The pious wish they can travel to take a dip in Ganga many times a year because every trip presents opportunities for many dharmik karma. If you consider this bigger picture, you would realize that "a thousand pilgrimages with a thousand baths" will certainly accumulate enough good karma for you to become free of sins.

There are some people putting in their efforts at cleaning Ganga. Every time I visit India I pass over Ganga at Patna and it is a very saddening picture. Ganga is indeed dirty, so dirty that words can't describe it. One after another GOI has been ignoring the problem and one after another GOI has been cheating Hindus in the name of big Ganga Cleaning Projects. I want but can't figure out how can I contribute to cleaning Ganga.

You say, "let every mahout and elephant trainer be a ganesh pujari... then aryas will back off and even praise your worship of the elephant god..." Please understand that we don't worship elephant God, we worship Lord Ganesh. It is not clear to me whether you criticize this worship itself or you criticize Hindus hypocrisy of worshiping Ganesh but practicing just the opposite of what that worship obliges them to do. If it is the latter, I am one with you. The need then is to explain the meaning of worship and encourage Hindus to worship sincerely. If you suggest abandoning all worship because it is not sincere, I will disagree with you.

I am aware of many things that are done part of some important samskaar but that may be inconsequential and even contrary to the samskaar being performed. You would recall my inquiries on Upanayan samskaar in this connection. Undoubtedly, samskaars must be better understood/explained and unnecessary rituals (most probably resulting from incorporating local customs into vedic vidhi) should be taken out so that the essentials are not lost.

On the use of terminology, the best would be the one most commonly used and accepted nowadays. That is Hindus and Arya Samaji.

Sri Ashegan, I didn't say that you are imposing your understanding of Vedas on others. I just said that you should clarify that you don't intend to do that. You have done that now. With this you are most welcome to present your understanding of Vedas. I am sure we need it and we will benefit from that. May I ask you this, have you read Puraans? If yes, did you find that all of it is contrary to Vedas and it has nothing positive to offer? If no, why not? Aren't you getting tied down by Arya Samaj's faith of what is right and what is wrong about something that you can find out yourself? May I also request you to state clearly your 'natural laws' and can you show to us that all Vedas, Upanishads, and shashtras acceptable to you conform to these natural laws? I believe a lot of debate can be avoided if that is possible.

Forgive me for the length of the message. I would try to be brief next time.

Dear Suresh,

It is true that chanting of sacred words and mantras,(especially initiated by a Guru) with the proper accent--- chanted with concentration, bhakti and prema opens the door to the Infinite...... this is one of the many paths.....wishing you the very best in your spiritual journey.

Others may not agree with this statement, but to me a faith, to be worthwhile, must be result oriented, and it must lead us continually toward improved conditions.

It is faith that has helped us survive as the original civilization these thousands of years. It is faith that has helped us regain our freedom as a nation. And it is faith that we need today to climb back up to the position of being the spiritual beacon to the world.

Is our faith today leading us continually to improved conditions? Is our faith alive and dynamic? Is it result oriented? If not, we should make certain that it is.

Personally, I believe that we can do a lot better than what we are doing right now.

How many of you agree?

It is correct that one should take responsibility and not shove it on others. As per Hindu dharma we are supposed to perform our actions to the best of our ability but leave the fruits of such action to the will of God. If I do commit a sin then I should try and rectify the situation and leave the fruit of that sin, being punishment to the will of God and face the consequences willingly without complaining. I should not keep remembering about that sin and feel guilty about it nor should I justify myself for such a sinful act.Taking responsibilty does not mean taking credit for the good deeds upon oneself. This goes against the teachings of Hindu dharma. The reason for this is God is in charge and the human being is the instrument of God. Good deeds are to done without the thought that one is doing the good deed. This means that one is acting with complete attention without the thought "I am performing this good deed". Such actions are holy,sacred and most pleasing to God. This is also mentioned in the Gita if I remember correctly. This is what I have learnt from Hinduism.

sri murali, i think it's only fair that i respond to some of your earlier criticism (directed at your 'ahamkar'):

you said bitterly that some of the lengthy posts weren't worth a piece of clay and that quality is far greater than quantity... i take it you were refering to my ones..
let me ask in response if you've made that observation after having actually read them?
Have you stopped to think that maybe i'm not as eloquent as you to make my argument so succinctly, or that maybe my thoughts need to be developed?
with all respect, if one rushes into a crowded room with one's eyes shut and then complains that one has seen nothing useful, whose fault is it?

to vomit up angry snap-happy comments without properly facing an argument, betrays a petty self-righteous shallowness.. and i hope it's not a trend that will remain...

as for the anti-arya 'self-pride' backlashes, all i have to ask is who is it bragging to others about the 'hindu way of life' or what it means to be a 'true hindu'?

Sri Vinaire,

Here is my answer to your questions:

Q: Is our faith today leading us continually to improved conditions?

A: YES.

Q: Is our faith alive and dynamic?

A: YES.

Q: Is it result oriented?

A: YES, more than what we have had since a long time.

You are right in believing that "we can do a lot better than what we are doing right now." There always is scope for improvement. I believe that most of us understand this and try to act in that direction to the best of our abilities.

Sri Vinaire,

Here is my answer to your questions:

Q: Is our faith today leading us continually to improved conditions?

A: YES.

Q: Is our faith alive and dynamic?

A: YES.

Q: Is it result oriented?

A: YES, more than what we have had since a long time.

You are right in believing that "we can do a lot better than what we are doing right now." There always is scope for improvement. I believe that most of us understand this and try to act in that direction to the best of our abilities.

Master Ashegan,

I feel it is not the hindu way of life when one feels "that my approach or path is the only correct one" and so others should conform to "my way" by changing their current ways. I feel it is the Hindu way of life when one is thirsting to be with Lord Rama/Krishna and wishes to take a dip in the Ganga where the water is clean enough. I feel a "true Hindu" allows others to choose their path to religious freedom even though it may seem silly and meaningless to him/her. It does not matter how stupid it is, a true Hindu does not mock at the other's stupid path. A true hindu has compassion for the other's way of approaching God. This is because a true Hindu knows that God is abiding in the Heart of the other just as HE/SHE is abiding in oneself.

I apologize if my messages sounded like bragging. I am aware I do not possess the tactfulness and patience of Sri Jha, Hariharan, Suresh and others. But my responses have been to the way you and Ramesh have attacked the Hindu way of religious freedom without compassion by making fun of the Hindu Gods/Godesses and its customs and practices. You are free to follow your arya samaj Guru but to expect everybody else to do the same by changing their ways just to suit your whim and fancy is not the hindu way of life nor is it expected from a true hindu. But then you have also attacked me in your own way by mocking me but I do not hold any grudge towards either you or Ramesh. How can I? I am sure both of you are half my age. Even otherwise it hardly matters. Nothing changes. I am pure consciousness deep within and so are you. We are all connected to God in the same way, no more no less.

Master Ashegan,

I feel it is not the hindu way of life when one feels "that my approach or path is the only correct one" and so others should conform to "my way" by changing their current ways. I feel it is the Hindu way of life when one is thirsting to be with Lord Rama/Krishna and wishes to take a dip in the Ganga where the water is clean enough. I feel a "true Hindu" allows others to choose their path to religious freedom even though it may seem silly and meaningless to him/her. It does not matter how stupid it is, a true Hindu does not mock at the other's stupid path. A true hindu has compassion for the other's way of approaching God. This is because a true Hindu knows that God is abiding in the Heart of the other just as HE/SHE is abiding in oneself.

I apologize if my messages sounded like bragging. I am aware I do not possess the tactfulness and patience of Sri Jha, Hariharan, Suresh and others. But my responses have been to the way you and Ramesh have attacked the Hindu way of religious freedom without compassion making fun of the Hindu Gods/Godesses and its customs and practices. You are free to follow your arya samaj Guru but to expect everybody else to do the same by changing their ways just to suit your whim and fancy is not the hindu way of life nor is it expected from a true hindu. But then you have also attacked me in your own way by mocking me but I do not hold any grudge towards either you or Ramesh. How can I? I am sure both of you are half my age. Even otherwise it hardly matters. Nothing changes. I am pure consciousness deep within and so are you. We are all connected to God in the same way, no more no less.

murali, is that why you're angry? coz someone likened me to a sage?
please know i've made no claim of that... it is a title so hefty it'd break my shoulders if i chose to bear it...
to sit at the feet of at least one true sage would be enough for me...

i am not mocking the ahamkar you're pre-occupied with... but the posts i've seen from you so far are not really bubbling with this mysterious 'peace and love'... you don't have to be overly nice... but face the arguments others have taken the time to make and give a proper response...

what knowledge do you owe to the hindu dharma... let me know, murali.. so far i've only seen criticism, no real knowledge being imparted...
go ahead, read the puraans, the ithaas... anything that could help you base your arguments against others calmly and rationally...

Master Ashegan,

May all the participants call you a sage (and may you actually be one) and may all of them call me what you have called me. Still nothing changes. You are entitled to your opinions.

The house of the Lord has many doors and they all lead in.

I see many wise men standing outside the house of the Lord, right outside.
All are arguing over which door to use.

"We should use the front door"
"No, we should use the side door"
"I am sure we should enter through the back door"

Once we are inside it will matter little which door we chose, only that we are in.

If your child, lost for a long time, were to return home you would not reject him because he came through one door or another.
You would only be glad to see him and you would embrace him, completely.

Let's go in.

Thank you, Sri Jha.

It would be my humble suggestion that when we discuss any faith in this forum, we should look at against some criteria, such as, the folowing.

Is that faith leading us to an improved condition? Or, has it done so in the past? And, if so, to what extent?

Is that faith result oriented? if so, what results have been, and are being, achieved that can be directly attributed to that faith.

Such criteria should also apply to the actions based on faith (such as, drinking "dirty water" as teerthum, bathing in the Ganges, etc.) that we have been discussing in this forum.

Dear Murali,

You stated: "I feel a "true Hindu" allows others to choose their path to religious freedom even though it may seem silly and meaningless to him/her. It does not matter how stupid it is, a true Hindu does not mock at the other's stupid path. A true hindu has compassion for the other's way of approaching God. This is because a true Hindu knows that God is abiding in the Heart of the other just as HE/SHE is abiding in oneself."

How many on this forum really meet this criteria of "true Hindu" based on what they have been posting on this forum (including yourself)?

This is not a challenge. This is simply a reality check.

The power of a spirit is manifested to the degree it is able to put its beliefs into practice.

Namaste Participants,

Our Dharma is practical.That which is received from a Guru is to be practiced and realised.Just by reading scriptures and understanding philosophies it is not possible to get Brahma gnana.One has to do continuous sadhana/Tapasya and only that can bring knowledge.
Once that Real Jnana is visualised within, the yogi becomes a stitaprajna.
One can read about different kinds of swimming techniques,conduct research,make hypothesis,argue with others about the best way of swimming etc.,but all this will not make him a good swimmer.To actually know what swimming is one has to get into the water himself.Reality is far different from mental speculation.
Knowing veda by heart and lecturing on it is far different than considering veda as apourusheya/God itself and chanting it with reverence.
So Dear hindus stop arguing and start practicing.

Thats the reason why Adi shankara declared
"nahi nahi rakshati dukrunkarane" - Harihi Om!

Dear Hariharan,

The day you started loving Bharata varsha you have become a real Bharateeya.
The sense of Kala and Desha will not apply to real Jnani's like you.
Lord Krishna has said
"Mlencha deshe ashuchouvaapi
chakraanko yatra tishtati
Yojanaani tatha treeni
Mama kshetram vasundharou" - Harihi Om

Our Dharma is living today because of Upanishads, Itihasas - Ramayana, mahabharata , Puranas - especially Bhagavatam, Yoga shastra etc.,
In addition great spiritual treatises written by great spiritual beings like Tulasidas,meera,Andal,Alwars,Nayanaars.Ramdas,Ramakrishna,Vivekananda,Arobindo,etc,etc.,are all rich in spiritual knowledge.
In addition without God,Temples,music,kshetras,Theertha-rivers,festivals one cannot imagine Hinduism.
A true Hindu is a mumukshu- aspiring for total knowledge leading to liberation, Darshan of Lord,
Self-realisation or whatever you call it.All the above helps him in his sadhana.
Only a real sadhaka with subdued senses full of humility, devoid of all the arishadvarga,burning with vairagya can appreciate this.- Harihi Om.

jha, i guess a certain amount of faith is blind... that is a side effect of the yug we are living in... we both agree that reason, intellect and knowledge are the best guides we have in the physical world to come close to the almighty.. that's enough for me...

we cannot present exhibit A: god's omnipotence, or exhibit B: his omniscience to the jury of our minds, even though we sometimes thirst in those needy moments for direct contact with what we place so much faith and trust in... reason, rationality, good thought, karma yog - all these are just the wings that carry us to the rocky mountain of god-realisation... we have to make it the rest of the way on foot, with faith as our companion, faith in something other and beyond... perhaps that adds to the magic of human life.. that not everything can be explained by eggheads with books and calculators... there is that swooning moment of heart-wrenching faith, when all the logic and reason in the world cannot tear us away from the bliss we crave...

returning to the subject of the ganga, jha... i agree that the yatras we save up for lead to many good acts.. similar to the noble things muslims do when they travel to makkah...
as brahmarshi manu says: dharmam shaneih sanshchinuyaat valmeekamiva puttikaah - like the little white ant collecting grains of sand one by one to build a mighty anthill, so should we in our lives keep collected dharma little by little...
but even all the goodness built up by performing yajna is all its aspects along the way cannot wipe away the stain of sin from the individual... the only detergent that will take that out is paying for it, in blood or tears or bank notes... god finds a way..
i'm not against yatrs to holy places... it enables people to meet other like-minded devotees and it emphasizes unity and the value of a common goal...

if you read my previous message you'll see what i objected to was only performing the perfunctory acts of bathing or shaving one's head or rolling clockwise around the temple, and not digging a little deeper to consider the theological questions that lie beneath.. eg. will my sin be given? should i rather pray for fortitude and forbearance in the hard times ahead?
i am not spitting upon the ritual or the ganga, but asking, or rather, suggesting what can be done to make the practise more wholesome and fulfilling... i'm sure we can all agree on that...

it's the same with teertam water... i'm not saying 'stop your ancestral ways'... i just think reinterpreting them and praying for things that are in keeping with vedic teaching (ved teaches an impartial, just god (niyaayakaari) who does not stall the punishment of those that deserve it) will be beneficial to us all...


i know you worship 'ganesh'.. i was merely responding to your comment that ramesh should not insult the animal because it reminds hindus of their god... it didn't seem to tally with the actual treatment of the living creature.. it is hypocritical to keep idols of beautifully carved elephants and wash them with milk and honey when the elephants in india used in the rural and tourist industry are treated with such disregard and cruelty.. in that argument, there is no hint at all of abandoning worship, as long as you realise what 'ganesh' means and how that relates to the function and quality of the one almighty god...


when i was younger, jha, i'd sit with my little sister and brother in the living room and spin the tales of the puraans - how ganesh lost his human head guarding his mother as she bathed... how sati burned herself up coz her father blasphemed her lord shiv... how a pillar of light that was shiv's linga (we didn't understand phallic symbolism back then) stretched so far, the swan and pig that were our other gods couldn't reach the ends... i still remember most of them now... i would read and read and read.. anything that smelt of our mythology...
and then i read the satyarth prakash...

i must be honest, jha and say that i don't believe the puraans are 100% evil or misleading... in the same way that we go through manu smriti and jettison the commandments to brand erring shudras with hot coals or burning iron, we can go through the puraans with caution...
if you go back and read my very first post you'll see my impression of them...
they are mystical texts, replete with icononography and metaphor, and the odd moral teaching as well.. but on the same thali are mixtures of gross fabrication and non-vedic nonsense... that is why i wrote that one who goes in must be armed with a discerning intellect.. let that be cultivated first.. sending a novice into the layered puranic mythology and expecting him to benefit spiritually from them is not wise...

a sharp sifting vedic mind can find the few gold nuggets stuck in the age-old mines of the puraans... i'm not denying that... if you can intepret the puraans on a metaphoric level that will be good for you
eg. take the devasura sangraam.. the everlasting rivalry between good (devas) and evil (daityas) exists internally of every being...
or the story of samudra manthan... when one reads that story, one should keep in mind the saying of rajah bhartrihari -

vighnaih punarapi punah prtihanyamaanaah
praarabhyottama janaah na parityajanti

'great men never abandon any work they have commenced even when confronted by obstacles'...
the objective one has in one's life is like the amrit lost in the rough ocean of the world... as the devas and daityas unite, we must unite inspite of differences and work in co-operation with others... let truth and honest work be your mandarachal, and let love win over the vasuki naags (the venomous, cruel people) in your own life...

that is the spirit in which the puraans need to be read.. that is what swamiji advocated... a discriminating intellect... unfortunately in recent times it has been the practise to just blindly accept what has been passed down as ancient and sacred without any active interpretation on a metaphysical or moral level...

aryas study the vedas as the true scriptures of mankind because we believe whatever good teachings are to be found in the knolled tales of the puraans are already in their pure untouched form in the vedas themselves... there are many figures and stories of the puraan that go against the grain of the veda, but not all of it... like the bible or the quran, it can yield the sweetness of truth if churned with a reasonable mind...
i have not told you to go burn your puraans or to reject them.. all i said was develope the right way of reading them ie. with the vedic/discerning buddhi...

arya samaj doesn't tie me down.. in fact, it sets me free.. aryas can read whatever they want and appreciate whatever they want... but when we hear that a monkey swallowed the sun, or a lady gave birth to snakes, or a demon's head was chopped off and little gremlins popped out wherever his blood fell on the ground, we know we can draw the line...

i'm not about to go and explain the immensity of natural law here jha... if you want to learn more about write to geography/natural history/biology/physics/genetics/astronomy departments of a university near you.. or even read satyarth prakash... it's not that i'm unwilling or afraid to explain but they will be of much greater help than me..

my understanding of rta is that it operates as physical order (the perfection of nature i learn about at school) and moral order... take as an example, the virgin birth of christ.. for aryas that is unnatural and against rta coz it requires the reproductive element to create a child, and the wierd anarya technology developing now where humans will be cloned from a single cell and two women can have a child together didn't exist then... to my knowledge, human beings are the only creatures that can go against the law of rta.. nature functions perfectly on its own... then we come in with the light of 'civilisation' and 'order'...

jha, i started this thread by saying i want to build a common foundation... i admitted what seemed to be indiscrepencies among the aryas here and offered my hand of brotherhood and understanding.. i said i wanted dialogue and exchange of ideas to enrich both sides...
i cannot be more clear than that in my purpose... was there any hint in that sincere introduction that betrayed my missionary zeal to stamp on hindu dharm and fish for converts to arya samaj? is that what you want to hear? i'm sad that my mission statement has not often been referenced by members of this
discussion... i didn't come here hungry for souls or for enemies... i came here to learn a little bit more...

for that definition of the hindu way of life, murali... it clears things up a bit... as yet i'm still waiting for real evidence of me condemning hindus taking teertam or bathing in the ganga... i never said - stop your tradition!... follow mine!... it makes more sense!...
never once did i try to enforce my beliefs on you or any of your fellow sanatanas.. and i don't recall mocking you either.. whatever i wrote was my impression of the way you were behaving.. it was objective observation...

have you read the exchange between jha and myself? are they hostile or bitter? i said on the outset of this discussion that i want to help build a bridge... how can that happen if you want to see us in opposing trenches, throwing grenades of hatred and bigotry?

on the point you made of letting people carry on doing something no matter how stupid or wrong it may be, i'm afraid that is something i can never agree to... i will not lambaste the practise of others or force people to accept my ideology, but i will try to find out the thinking behind their actions and investigate... if its necessary, i will try to create a positive questioning attitude so that the ritual isn't blind or dry anymore or followed only coz it's been done that way for so long...

god is just as strong in them as he is in me or you, but he did not give us a buddhi and a tongue so that we may keep our beliefs and opinions to ourselves and do not help in constructive human dialogue... one must never be tolerant of ignorance.. tolerance is tantamount to encouragement... enquire.. ask.. find out what you're missing in the picture... and offer criticism or suggestion if you can... nobody is forced to accept what you think or believe (that is why i only mention common general issues like cleanliness of water, which you've agreed with)..
but both parties are the richer for the interaction...
that is the magnificence of life.. that there is so much to learn from and about others, and that we can offer the greatest daana ever - knowledge...

Per my understanding, any spiritual practice is there to bring an individual closer to the awareness of truth. I can also see that such a spiritual practice may be subverted by some for imagined personal gain.

In this context I would like to understand how the practice of 'teertam' originate. What was the original intention behind this practice? And if that original intention still exist underlying this practice.

Maybe the defenders of this practice can shed some light on it. I am enquiring this in good faith and not to mock it in any way.

I feel I have said enough in this thread. It is also getting too slow to log on. I liked Richard's message very much. I am once more posting it to close my chapter as far as my any messages between myself and (A.S.)are concerened. But whatever I had to say about their erroneous ways had to be said to them without inhibitions. Keeping quiet meekly would have meant that their ways would be condoned. I am personally bored with this thread. Mockings and ridicules by expected quarters are as welcome as fresh dew drops on the lotus.

Richard's beautiful message:

The house of the Lord has many doors and they all lead in.

I see many wise men standing outside the house of the Lord, right outside.
All are arguing over which door to use.

"We should use the front door"
"No, we should use the side door"
"I am sure we should enter through the back door"

Once we are inside it will matter little which door we chose, only that we are in.

If your child, lost for a long time, were to return home you would not reject him because he came through one door or another.
You would only be glad to see him and you would embrace him, completely.

Let's go in.

The above I will acknowledge are the words of a Sage filled with jnana, prema and bhakti.

Let's go in.
allow,allow,aum,allow,aum............

it is cowardly to flee, shooting parthian shots and not having the courage to face what those you accuse have to say, murali...
i wouldn't have thought for such a while and written so much if i knew you were going to back out so desperately...
leave if you wish but realise that the error lies not with keeping quiet and meek and not addressing your concerns, but rather with making baseless remarks without proving anything (all the anti-aryan venom)... that itself is a hollow way of retreat... swastir cha shaantir bhavatu..
peace and auspiciousness go with you, murali..

vinaire, like achaman teertam probably evolved because of the hindu respect for the natural elements... fire and water are present at all hindu ceremonies.. sipping water from ancient times has been symbolic of linking oneself with the power of the devatas (powers of nature)... i'm not sure if the word is linked to tirtha - 'crossing point' - a word for places of pilgrimage...

There is a saying in Kannada:

Vedanti Helidanu honnella mannu mannu
Kaviyobba haadidanu mannella honnu honnu.

Meaning: Vedanti says All Gold is mud mud
(But) A Poet says All mud is Gold Gold.

Both the statements are true with respect to the context (The frame of reference).This is more important while understanding scriptures.
One should be a Poet to understand puraanas.One should not Jump into conclusions based on wrong assumptions.
Before making comments like monkey swallowing sun, etc., it should be realised that a truly poetic mind with absolutely no taint of prejudice is required to analyse and understand them.
As per my Guru's injunction Veda and puraanas are apourusheya.Vyasadev compiled it to help the less intelligent mankind to understand them easily.
Puraanas are nothing vedic truths wrapped in poetic form.
Before going into understanding scriptures it is very much essential to do rigorous sadhana which makes the equipment of Budhdhi more matured and balanced.With this power of tapascharya one should study scripture.
Sri, Ashegan ,I did not expect statements like monkey swallowing Sun etc., from YOU. Kindly make sure that you will not offend fellow Hindu's sentiments.Sri Hanuman is My Ishta devatha.He is the incarnation of prana which unites Paramatma (Rama) with Jeevatma (Sita).
A complete Yogic interpretation of Ramayana is available with me.Be kind enough as a Real Hindu not to make statements based on wrong assumptions.
Hari-Om.

Dear Suresh,

I am happy to learn you are from Karnataka and you speak Kannada. I am from Bangalore but living in U.S. Who is your Guruji? Please hang around so I can learn spiritually from you. Your presence is certainly a breath of fresh air to this forum. Well at least I feel it is.

Fondly

Dear Suresh,

When you quote in Sanskrit please translate in English as some of us including me are not well versed in that beautiful language but would love to understand the meaning correctly. Thanks.

Dear Murali,
I am a Kannadiga from the land of Sri Hanuman.
My GuruJi is Shri Anantha narasimhachar.He is the one who opened the door of spirituality for me.
Dear Participants,
Please note: Sage Purandara dasa says without becomming a gulam of a Guru, Mukti is imposible.

Hari Om

Dear Suresh,

How many out there are able to understand the Puranas correctly in their poetic form and derive the required understanding?

I think the problem is not just the with misinterpretation of Puranas but with the insistence that that misinterpretation is correct. That is my understanding of "blind faith."

If the correct understanding were there we will see it in practice. How much of that understanding do you see in practice today?

Shree Rama
I'm a half Kannadiga, my appa is from bangalore and mother is from madras. Just like you Suresh, Bajarangabali is my most favorite deity even aside from Purushottama Sriman Narayana and Jaganmata Mahalakshmi. Hanuman is the perfect devotee, friend, warrior, scholar and person in the history of our entire scriptures. His bhakthi and love was so great for Lord Rama he choose to reside in the place of Ramanama instead of vaikuntha. This great Mahavira ripped open his chest to show the world that Rama and Sita(who together are the Supreme, Rama the male aspect and Sita the female) resided in his heart. Looking at hanuman just as a monkey and equating with a monkey is utterly reprehensible, i would expect this from a person who does not understand hinduism or is vehemently against it. Hanuman is the mukyaprana, vayu-putra and the parama-vaishnava.

Shree Rama
Jai Shree Bajarangabali
Shree Ramanujaya Namah
-Mukunda

Sri Ashegan
Speaking as a beginner in Sanskrit again, your knowlege is far more vast than you ever let know, however, reading it in Roman script is well nigh impossible, roll on the Devanagri interface.

Just a few random thoughts about some of the things that have cropped up in this thread:
the Achman ritual before eating when some water in the palm of the hand is sprinkled in front while thanking deities and then drinking the rest has a very important reason. It wets the spit so that one does not choke on the first mouthful
of food. As it is in the name of dieties it has a life-long seal on it, a mere say-so of a mortal would not have the same binding obligation.

I learnt this from a guru who has highest qualifications in both Ayurvedic as well as
western medicine.

This business of drinking dirty water. Whatever the state of our public squalor, in person and at puja we are scruplously clean. How can a pujari offer dirty water. I would refuse it, no reference required from any authority. Would even point out the dirt to the giver, no dip in the Ganga required afterwards to absolve my refusal. But to go around officiously, pointing out the so-called ignorance of the general public is so stupidly arrogant.

I notice at Iskcon mandirs in Europe many of our Euro-friends have not quite got the hang of things, being mechanical and perfunctory, refusing to learn even the Devanagiri phonetic script, with the result that even the Devis and Devatas perhaps find it difficult to understand their pronunciation.
Fortunately the preparation of prasadam is still in Indian hands and so we can thank them for the bakhti, sewa and prem in preparing it.

Whether they admit to being part of the Hindu family I do not know but I have never once heard a public denunciation of Hindus, puranas etc. Indeed, nor in all my visits to the Arya Samaj mandirs in India or UK. Is the extreme language used against Hindus in this forum the norm in your religion? (I have to say "your religion", taking after you.) Otherwise there is no need to build bridges as you suggest, one does not build a bridge to one's own house.

I am at home in any Indian brand of *religion*. Why not accept this as one of the glories of our Dharma, we do not exclude anyone. If you object to puranas, Bhagvat and whatever, so be it. Nobody forces anything down anybody's throat.

As for destroying icons, idols, presumably mandirs that house them as well? When I came down from the mountains, past the desolate north Indian plains, heading south, I was a confused youngster searching for answers, not knowing the questions to ask.
Then my spirits soared, sore eyes suddenly brightened at the sight of the magnificent temples. There is one temple with nothing in it, no murti, this too is part of the Eternal Dharma.

You say we can offer the greatest daan ever - knowledge. True but only if we are accepting all the various manfestations of our Dharma as equally valid, they all derive their sustenance from the well-spring of the Veda.
I have enormous appreciation of your learning and steadfastness in defending the Samaji pov, but do
you really have to say to Sri Murali, *It is cowardly to flee*. It is the best and the only thing to do quite often. Just watch me go, gone.

Please use the thread

Aryas and Sanatanas (2)

as this thread is taking too long to load fro some. Thank you.