Murali stated:

"But whatever I had to say about their erroneous ways had to be said to them without inhibitions. Keeping quiet meekly would have meant that their ways would be condoned."

This discussion is simply an exchange of viewpoints. There would not be any exchange if everybody is agreeing with everybody.

There is also no intention to make each other wrong. We are looking at certain beliefs objectively, and presenting our viewpoints on these beliefs.

If there is an upset it is because one is identifying self with such beliefs. One feels wronged personally when one's belief is being examined closely simply because one accepted that belief on blind faith without personal examination at the first place.

There is criticism from both sides, but such criticism is not bad if it is constructive and extended in good faith with the intention to bring out the underlying truth more clearly.

When one criticizes one bears the responsibility of properly answering to one's criticism. Thus, a criticism "without inhibitions" is still answerable, and one must not run away from this responsibility.

We all are seeker's of truth. That must be kept in mind above all considerations no matter what beliefs that one feels attached to.

I have stated that I do not have many of the beliefs personally in one of the messages. All I said is, it would be incorrect and arrogant on my part to ridicule and mock others who believe in those beliefs just because I don't have those beliefs. It is as simple as that. What can I do if the other party does not understand what I am saying but misinterprets them deliberately? It is best to leave them alone. You can express your feelings a few times, but if it is not understood, what is the point in going on arguing about it? I have no intention in convincing others. If I like certain messages from anybody I will simply acknowledge it. If I feel certain messages are incorrect as per my understanding I will say so. I cannot help if they take them personally. If they attack me personally they are welcome to do so. This cannot be avoided nor do I take them personally.

Namaste Jhaji,

Can you say that what appears to you is truth and that is the only truth?
Investigation and Reasoning are required. I never said that I know Truth. I have started my journey. I am removing the obstacles in my path.

Please say clearly whether you think you know what knowledge is and what ignorance is. Please also say whether you think that only you know that. I don't know. Your approach of "trashing" what you find as illogical and stupid is not sound unless you believe only you can discriminate knowledge from ignorance and unless you are incapable of better ways to deal with what appears to you, but may not be, illogical and stupid.
There are many things that are beyond my reason. That doesn’t mean that we have to become irrational. I will always to try to rise and sharpen my reason and intellect. I would never settle for something irrational.

You are avoiding the issue here. What is profane and abusive language remains so irrespective of what one considers as religious. Please answer directly, do you think that you cannot discuss your views in a decent, not necessarily religious, language?
I was telling you the Truth. What can I do if truth hurts you? According to you all that pleases is decent. What can I do if my views are against yours? Even your sick Krishna pleases you.

You are avoiding the question which is not what a jnani should do.
When did I say that I am a Jnani (Realized one)? I said Jnana is important which some people on this board don’t accept. Some consider it as an attribute of Ahankara. A person with intelligence would never accept shit as Prasad. How would a person blinded by ignorance know this?

If something can be determined based on reasoning, intellect, logic, knowledge etc. then it is not called faith, blind or otherwise
Veda says "Shraddhayaa Vindate Vasu".
Man attains prosperity by faith.
With firm faith and trust, one is able to achieve all riches and wealth, education and knowledge, besides the ultimate aim which one aspires. Today people have wrong notion about Shraddha and consider that faith is just the reverse of rational. This is not so according to the etymological sense of the word, meaning of Shraddha is to have firm faith on the results based on truth. This can only be when the same is rational and not without any cause and effect theory.

This inference is not supported by perception and hence it is absurd. This is irresponsible extrapolation.
Then why don’t you consider teertam (dirty water) as absurd?

Please understand that Truth does not take side.
Did I say that Truth takes sides? I meant your arguments weren’t based on Truth but based on blind faith (Not Shraddha).

You can continue abusing others in the name of truth but if your interest is in establishing truth and removing ignorance, you wouldn't succeed this way.
Even God cannot help you if truth offends you

Are you an authority, or the sole authority? If not, how can you so confidently declare others as fools and abuse them?
We know if the rice is cooked or not by just checking a morsel.

Why don't you apply same principle to others and limit your comment on what others say, not what you think they blieve?
I am here to trash illogical puranas, Bhagvat and stupid rituals of Hindusim (corrupted) that corrupts the brains of the people. What can I do it if they are dearer you?

Because that will make me idle which you don't suggest Hindus to do.
I am suggesting a lot here but are you following them?

Please correct your understanding on faith.
My faith doesn’t tell me to be lazy. But I don’t say the same with your puranas or Santoshimata katha. So what should we correct?

That doesn't answer my question.
It answers many things about Kubera and Venkateshwara.
1) Financially Kubera is better then Venkateshwara.
2) Venkateshwara loots his devotees to pay his debt. His state is worse than a beggar. Why pray him when he depends on you?
3) Isn’t it better for Hindus to pray Kubera than Venkateshwara?

you must accept the possibility that others may not be wrong.
I accept truth.

In any case, you sound foolish to others and others sound foolish to you. So, where do you go from there - on a endless path of insults and abuses?
I am not here to please others. You have fallen in love with your tumor (Puranas). The experts have no choice but to remove it. But your decision is final.

Don't ask me. It is for you to justify what you say as a jnani.
Hindu concept of heaven is absurd/foolish/irrational.

Puranic concept of heaven is not only different from Vedic and Upanishadic
But also immoral and illogical

S/he can't put in any effort if you knock him/her down unconscious with you trashing and insults. You have to find better ways for his cooperation since you know that you can save nobody without his/her cooperation.
H/She can’t differentiate between a rope and a snake.

You refer to it and justify yourself. That is your responsibility.
Why else would I be trashing them?

You are not careful enough not to remove seeds along with weeds. (Can you see the symbolism in what you say? Will it be appropriate if others laugh at it without proper understanding?)
How can I be like you to keep the diseased seeds?

Please say what is your mission, so that I don't have to be ignorant on this next time.
Before that I want to remove the weeds (Puranas and the sick Bhagvat)

Ramesh

"The certainty that one KNOWS, exists neither in matter, energy, space, and time, nor in the reflection of them in the mind. One must dive deep into abstraction to gain that certainty of complete understanding. There is nothing wrong with using images and symbols to get at the deeper meaning. But one must discriminate between the image and the experience it symbolizes. Mathematics uses symbols to gain insights. Language uses symbols to communicate. Religion uses all physical manifestations to experience its source. All knowledge has been gained through the observation of physical phenomena. It is rare that one can experience knowledge directly in a single step.

"So, a Hindu symbolizes the various aspects of existence and spirituality to arrive at the deeper understanding of God. BRAHMA symbolizes creation, VISHNU symbolizes survival, and MAHESH symbolizes destruction. Together, this TRINITY describes the cycle of Existence: Create, Survive, Destroy. This is the great abstraction which the Hindu mind reached about ten thousand years ago. These symbols and idols in Hinduism are nothing in themselves. They are there to remind certain abstractions underlying all life. To a Hindu, all such symbols and idols are "educational aids." They drop into relative insignificance to the degree one gains an awareness of God."

- from the essay, Can God be Defined?

Sri Ashegan,

I basically see no difference in our views. I am one with you in understanding and following Hindu scriptures in their true meaning and spirit. I am for rejecting what is obviously irrational, explaining the same to the masses in the best persuasive language possible and not condemning any faith/belief which is confined to an individual and found useful by an individual in his/her spiritual journey. I don't want to impose my judgement in such cases. I am for separating what is eternal and must be accepted on faith and what is temporal and must have rational explanation within the space-time-matter framework. I guess you think likewise.

You write, "even all the goodness built up by performing yajna is all its aspects along the way cannot wipe away the stain of sin from the individual" and also say, ""i agree that the yatras we save up for lead to many good acts". Dear Ashegan, if good acts can't make a difference in the sum total of all karmas, what else would? If the goodness built up by performing pious deeds can't pay for one's bad karmas what else can? If my understanding of Karma is not confused then something is missing in yours. Or is it the other way around?

Please understand that not all visiting the temples, taking a dip in the holy rivers, shaving their heads and rolling clockwise around the temple are doing so meaninglessly. Many of them are just filled with devotion. You, as a very rational person, may not like it but those who like it get some of the best spiritual bliss while doing those acts. When I see MTV, I often wonder how can someone enjoy that channel. But we all know there are people who won't like anything better. It is in recognition of this difference among people that Hinduism suggests many spiritual paths. Your suggestion that while praying in a temple, one should think "will my sin be given? should i rather pray for fortitude and forbearance in the hard times ahead?" sounds, if you forgive me the word, absurd to me. Such practice would kill the very essence of prayer, a heart and mind empty of all thoughts but devotion. In my opinion, you are trying to rationalize bhakti, you are trying to crush bhakti under the load of jnana. You may consider more balancing acts.

You say, "i don't believe the puraans are 100% evil or misleading... in the same way that we go through manu smriti and jettison the commandments to brand erring shudras with hot coals or burning iron, we can go through the puraans with caution .. but on the same thali are mixtures of gross fabrication and non-vedic nonsense..." I appreciate and agree with this.

You further say, "one who goes in must be armed with a discerning intellect.. let that be cultivated first.. sending a novice into the layered puranic mythology and expecting him to benefit spiritually from them is not wise..." I would like to comment a little on that. Any reading is not of much benefit without the intellect required for understanding. This is not different in case of Vedas either. On the contrary, studying Vedas and Upanishads require much more discerning intellect. In fact that is where Puranas are more helpful. It presents a more colorful and pictorial view of philosophy, which is easier for common masses to understand.

Swami Vivekananda explained that religion has three components, Ritual, Mythology and Philosophy. One generally moves from Rituals to Mythology and finally to Philosophy. The Swami likened these to kindergarten, school and university. You are suggesting quite an opposite route, develop sufficient discerning intellect and then study Mythology. Only very few, like yourself, with a reasoning and intellect far superior than others can grasp Philosophy without going through Rituals and Mythology. Generally, the layered puranic mythology acquires new meaning as one moves up to philosophy.

You say, "layered puranic mythology a sharp sifting vedic mind can find the few gold nuggets stuck in the age-old mines of the puraans... i'm not denying that..." You have to understand that puranic mythology is aimed at sharpening the mind that can grasp vedic wisdom. You are putting the whole thing upside down.

As I understand, if one develops the spirit in which swamiji advocated the purans should be read then one may not need reading purans. Purans are meant for developing that spirit, not the other way around.

Like you, most Hindus also know where to draw the line when they hear "a monkey swallowed the sun, or a lady gave birth to snakes, or a demon's head was chopped off and little gremlins popped out wherever his blood fell on the ground". The difference is that they draw the line without making so much noise about it. They don't have to keep repeating and laughing about it to prove they have discerning intellect.

Dear Ashegan, I know much better where to look for natural laws. You can give me the address but at your age you are yet to study many of those laws but I am through with that process and continuing. So, don't tell me that if you are willing to explain you can explain geography, natural history, biology, physics, genetics, astronomy and much more to me.

Your understanding of rta as that which operates as physical order and moral order is fine but as long as rta, or natural laws apply only to physical order, you can't show that Vedas and other scriptures, that deal primarily with eternal and non-physical things, are fully consistent with natural laws. I know that virgin birth doesn't conform to known natural laws but I also know that transmigration of soul, rebirth, potentiality of the results of a karma and so on also can't be shown to conform to any known natural laws. All we can say is that our core beliefs are more reasonable than that of many other religions. That doesn't mean they are bound to, or can be shown to, conform to natural laws. In the light of above, I think it is childish to keep insisting that Vedas conform to natural laws.

Dear Ashegan, your opening statements in the earlier thread has not been lost. I never doubt your sincerity or motives. I hope you understand that essentially we don't differ and our motives remain the same - proper understanding of dharma and its defense.

Some comments on the post above by Sri Jha:

“Swami Vivekananda explained that religion has three components, Ritual, Mythology and Philosophy. One generally moves from Rituals to Mythology and finally to Philosophy. The Swami likened these to kindergarten, school and university.“

This is true. There wouldn’t be a problem if this path were being followed. However, when we look at the masses of people in India, the number of people arriving at the level of philosophy in one lifetime is a very small percentage of the total. Are there factors that are holding the majority of people back at the lower levels? It appears to be so. Arya Samaj seems to be attempting to identify and eliminate these factors. This is a laudable purpose.

”You have to understand that puranic mythology is aimed at sharpening the mind that can grasp vedic wisdom.”

How much of this statement is true? Does an observation of people in India bear this out? Please see the earlier comment.

“I also know that transmigration of soul, rebirth, potentiality of the results of a karma and so on also can't be shown to conform to any known natural laws.”

This is an opinion and not entirely true. These conclusions were arrived at by the Rishis by keen observation of life, and not in any arbitrary manner. These ARE the laws of life as discovered by the Rishis. What are natural laws, by the way?

[NOTE: Observation does not mean reasoning but a direct perception of what is passing. Reasoning follows observation.]

Correct observaton is very necessary for proper reasoning. One must observe the present conditions in India and factor them into one's reasoning to arrive at correct conclusions.

Otherwise, one ends up with

Garbage in = Garbage out

This is a fact. No offense is intended here toward anybody.

I believe that the vedas are not the only authority in Hinduism as Arya Samaj claims. Every Hindu accepts the vedas as the authority just because it was and still is the oldest scripture in Hinduism. We should accept the non-vedic scriptures as Hindu scriptures as well. Keep in mind that the vedic rishis were not the only contributors towards Hinduism.

The entire society of Indian soil have one way or other contributed towards Hinduism. It may be in the form of vedas, upanishads, purana, philosophy and beliefs. Their aim seems to be only one, just to guide Hindus to the path of Dharma and spirituality.

At no time are all the members of a society at the cultural level in India. This disparity in cultural life must have existed in human society in all ages, even during the very infancy of the human race.

It is the belief of the orthodox Hindus that there existed, even at the begining of human society, perfected souls and seers of a very high order, and through them spiritual truths and rules of right conduct (dharma) were revealed to man from time to time. We can safely conjecture that in the early Vedic period of Indian history there might have existed persons of advanced thinking and high spiritual realization as well as men of crude understanding and simple beliefs. There are a lot of people who find some kind of spiritual shelter and clanish cooperation in such beliefs. It is not easy to break such deep rooted beliefs overnight. Proper preaching and lecture is required to undertake such a mammoth task.

So, it will be better for us to identify crude beliefs and remove it in a slower phase then dumping all at one go. Crude belief is not only existing with illiterates, but it do exist with professionals as well.

Not only Arya Samaj, but all Hindu organizations and institutions should identify and verify the suitability of crude belief scriptures for the present society. Once identified, than destroy it or caution Hindus not to follow or practice such beliefs any more. The priest community should come up bravely to lead the new millenium with proper logic and reasons without relying fully on illogical puranas and crude beliefs. I singled out the priest community because overwhelmingly hindus still follow the advices of priest at large. They are still in full control of the practices and rites of Hinduism throughout the world except a few Hindu sects.

Thandabani

All real Hindus believe that there are different paths (Yoga) to attain the Supreme Godhead.
These are called Jnana Yoga, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga etc.,
Based on the type of Guna and Karma of an embodied Jiva a particular path should be chosen and one should try to find a qualified Guru who can guide him in his chosen path of Yoga.
All these different paths (Yoga) are all equally valid.A TRUE HINDU (sadhaka) should realise this.
A Jnana yogi should never look down upon or mock at a Bhakti Yogi and vice versa.
Continuous Tapas/Sadhana is necessary for a Jnani to become a better Jnani and for a Bhakta to become a better Bhakta.
As for as a Bhakta is concerned - Everything that helps him in increasing his bhakti is completely VALID.So in this case -Temple,Murthi,Pooja,Theertha,Prasaada, Yaatra (Piligrimage), Theertha-snana, etc,etc., are all valid.
This does not mean that a bhakta goes to Ganga where drainage water enters and drinks from there!
Long long ago Ganga was totally pure all along.
Puranas - especially Bhagavatham is meant for a Bhatka and Jnana Yogi need not read that.
In fact it is only in Bakti yoga that Varna vanishes completely and there is complete enjoyment ( Not material)
In Skanda purana The narrator of the story is suta puranika who is not a brahmin.Bhagavatam emphasises only Bhakti as a qualification and varna (caste) has no importance at all.
I agree with Thandapani in saying that Priest community should come up bravely to lead in the new millenium with proper logic and reasons.
That what I want to do in my life and I want to produce millions of such priests (like suta puranika).
It is totally unwise to consider puranas,Ithihasas (Ramayana,Mahabharata) as a kinder garden.It may appear so for a so called Jnani.

Shri AdiShankara,who emphasised on Jna marga himself diclared that at the time of Death No scriptural knowledge will come to a jiva's help.
Hence Bhaja Govindam Moodamate!
I am sure he has spoken out of real experience.
- Hari Om

umm... vinaire, the way this thread is growning, it seems there's going to have to be an ARYAS AND SANATANAS (3) pretty soon :)
you have shown an open-mindedness and a willing ear to alot of stuff i've had to say... for me that was a cooling balm in a pretty suspicious and insular environment... and for that i am thankful...

TO SURESH AND JITEN
namaste to you both...
sureshji, i agree that the puraans are composed in a poetic form (though very different from the sublime poetry of the veds)... but as in english, to properly appreciate esoteric poetry one has to study english literature and philosophy... that is what we do at school now... we do not just delve into shakespeare and comprehend every sonnet... we have to be honed into the right frame of thinking and comprehension of the language and imagery first... i believe the same applies to the puraans..

if only poets read the puraans, degeneration of religion would have not occured in india, or at least at a much slower pace... but it's not only the poets that hear and believe in the puraans, sureshji... those unschooled in poetic imagery or the tools of creative writing can be very easily misled by them... it is the masses that the puraan has led into a very mythological form of religion...

i didn't mean to offend your religious sensitivities by the 'monkey swallowing the sun' comment, suresh... don't take it as a personal affront... i was briefly describing some of the myths and falsities that aryas do not accept from the puraans... we believe the sun is 'bradhna' - thousands of times larger than the earth and that an earthly animal (or semi-animal) cannot possibly swallow it...similarly aryas would not agree with the story that hanumanji was concieved when semen was dribbled into his mother's ear...
but the fact that such things are even shown on tv series with special effects increases the belief among people that these are actual occurences...

if you have a philosophical interpretation of the legend, i'd appreciate it... but still remember that many of our less educated brothers in our motherland cannot comprehend that twisting of the story to fit abstract or moral values...

we are not trashing the story or your reverence for the deity but stress that unnatural things be not simply accepted without intelligent enquiry and thought... it is easy to sit around a campfire and listen to fairy tales, but to interpret those tales on a spiritual and metaphorical level is hard and the right intellect for such balanced thinking needs to be inculcated... when priests and scholars who recite kathas to the common people, give the interpretation on a moral/ethical level that can benefit the lives and attitudes of the listeners, that will be a developement i will bow my head before...

jiten bhai, i'm not such a great sanskrit scholar... i've had no formal training... just shrilly reciting the alphabet and a few mantras under the stern steely eyes of my dadaji... i wish i could give the words in the devanagari script but i don't have the font on my computer to write it that way, and since i've seen much greater scholars of sanskrit like vishal etc. quoting in transliteration, i thought i should too...

about achaman, i meant the ones we do before havan and sandhyaa, but i know about the meal time one when water is sprinkled over the food and we pray-
om annapate annasya no
dehyanamivasya shushmina
pra pradaataaram taarisha
urjan no dhehi dvipade chatushpade

oh god, giver of food... may you provide us with healthy and energy-producing food..
grant happiness to those that give in charity.. may this food give us strength

i hope all hindus are in habit of taking achaman before eating...

i'm not trying to be 'officious' or stupidly 'arrogant'... i'm not telling anyone that their rituals are bad for them or meaningless.. all i'm saying is be aware of what you're doing... if you know that the water is dirty and is probably carrying germs and bacteria, let faith and love for god be your teertam for that day... when you can, take the alleged holy water, boil and distill it and then take it as teertam... that is healthy and avoiding contracting any ailments...
one wouldn't complain when a health inspector comes around or a social worker or counsellor... why feeled peeved and offended when one of your own tries to create greater health conditions and awareness?

i know this animocity that is so prevalent on this forum is not normally seen in arya mandirs (maybe coz there are mostly aryas there in the first place)... in this forum we are exposed truly to each other's conflicting beliefs and we have to try to resolve them... as with any process, sparks do fly and here they are quite noticeable... i haven't to my knowledge used foul or excessively strong language on anyone... but if you can quote and justify, i am most willing to accept blame and apologise if the fault is mine...

we are in the same house, a bit crumbly and musty after centuries of degeneration, but remember that we have been on two seperate balconies on either side of this house... we have to make some sort of makeshift bridge across the divide... but the aryas are to some extent exterminators of whatever we see is contrary to the ved... and if people have grown used to the cockroaches and rats that have been nurtured over such a long time they won't like to have us over... so that's why i'm stressing diplomacy and mutual exchange to create a positive environment...

don't just accept that we reject puranas and bhagvat... ask us why... challenge us... find out the reason... instigate constructive discussion on the subject.. come to a common point or shared aspects... this leads to further unity, and with unity comes strength...
if something in arya samaj confuses you or even angers you, inquire about it.. don't be complacent and and just say - that's the way they do things.. let them be.. i don't care why they believe in such things...
if you feel we are in the wrong let us know... talk to us.. encourage interaction and positive criticism... i can ensure you that we would appreciate that and be aware of your opinions and views.. at the end of the day, both of us are the richer, having learnt something new about a wing of this mansion you believe is your dharma...

jitenji, i think it it was imperative that i let murali know that to run away from the arguments that other people have taken the time and the effort to make is cowardice... to turn back and fire a few last arrows declaring that one has been some kind of holy warrior defending the dharma from the evil intolerant arya invaders, when the accused has been pleading for peace and dialogue and meaning to rituals - i don't feel that's right... i suggested earlier that he retire and cool off for a while.. and come back cool and objective and see what i was really trying to say - not making an attack on religion or his beliefs, but enquiring whether something can be done to give some practises greater depth and security...

sri jha, it is good we've managed to salvage a fringe of commonality... to me it is inspiring that the aim with which i started this thread has materialised so effectively in the dialogue we've shared... with the basic ideology of faith and what should be accepted and tolerated in society, i feel we can address the minor theological and philosophical differences that exist between us... arya samaj is grounded in dialogue and a questioning attitude, even of our own beliefs... may we all join in discussion in this spirit...


as i said the only way sin can be erased is through suffering for them... you can murder parents and leave children orphans, and the spend your lifetime in remorse dedicated to protecting the homeless and underprivileged... that will amass a mountain of punya karma and you will be blessed by the almighty for this noble work...

but he is all-knowing.. he has heard the cries and felt the tears that you've caused, and according to his perfect, infallible and everlasting justice, you will suffer for your crime... maybe if its even going through the pain of birth and dying shortly after... that is the way i like to think of child deaths... that the soul was so pure and good that only a fraction of bad karm had to be accounted for...
in the perfection of karma and punarjanma there are no oversights or excusable sins...

none can believe, as muslims do that your sin can be forgiven.. that leads to the mistaken belief that one can act as one wishes and then repent and seek forgiveness... the almighty punishes us because he loves us and wants us to better ourselves by not even feeling encouraged to the path of vritr... forgiveness of sins and the idea of repentance has made the faiths of the dasyuun, islam and christianity, burgeon and grow.. it provides loopholes and an easy way out... no one wants to suffer...


obviously my suggestion was taken in the wrong sense if it appeared absurd to you, sri jha... i didn't mean that those words be the prayer of the devotee and they forsake devotion in favour of rationality... not at all... but they need to have a thinking and active intellect at all times... such is the nature of the mind that it easily becomes used to dormancy and lapses into indolence... i've seen it happen all the time around me... the essence of prayer is not to seek forgiveness for sin or cringe for well-being... it is to throw oneself before the mind-blowing power and soul-kindling love that is the parabrahma in humility and submission to his will.. it is to draw close to him by praising him and asking for his guidance in our lives...
is asking for forbearance and fortitude absurd as a prayer?? remember the whole verse asking for these qualities -

tejo'si tejo mayi dhehi, viiryam asi viiryam mayi dhehi
balam asi balam mayi dhehyojo-syojo mayi dhehi
manyurasi manyum mayi dhehi, saho'si saho mayi dhehi

oh god, you are infinite lustre, kindly impart to me that lustre..
you are infinite vigour, please, put in me that vigour..
you are infinite strength, bestow such strength on me..
you are prowess, oh lord, be gracious and infuse me with prowess...
you are full of wrath against the wicked, bless me that i may have indignation toward the wicked..
oh god, you are infinite endurance/forbearance, bestow on me the strength to endure (the trials and tribulations that i must face)

would such a verse be absurd? in essence it stresses the same prayerful tone that i did... pleading the almighty for strength and fortitude... i have never recited a prayer that asked god to wipe away the sins i have done... all prayer in the ved asks for are things like guidance and wisdom like the above mantr from yajurved, not erasing past sins...

worship is really a union of three things - stuti (glorification of god), praathana (prayer) and upaasanaa (communion)... in all of these there is intense devotion and love felt for god, but also fear of sinning and going against rta in our lives...
in fact, regarding sin in prayer, one of the first steps in arya sandhyaa is aghamarshana - repentance and intense desire to keep aloof from even the thought of sin... all this aids in the developement of a sensitive conscience and reminds one that all sins, from killing a spider in your bath tub to massacreing innocents - all is taken notice of... god is the saakshin.. god is the witness.. he sees and knows every secret act, and the noose of his justice is ever-vigilant...

as i said, let them perform the rituals of their faith, roll around the temple of ayyappa or get pushed and shoved around in tirupati... if they have a functional buddhi, even a trip to the dentist will be as beneficial as a yatr...
(note: i also mentioned the unifying and noble effects of going on pilgrimage...)

personally, i like mtv, jha... rap music and R&B are my taste, just as much it may seem distasteful to you, but that analogy does not really relate to the subject of religious dogma... with music, it is a choice of what sounds good to the ear regardless of what it means or says, with worship, it's what seems good to the mind and soul... but it must take heed of things like vivek, daena (conscience) and sound thinking... the almighty wishes for us to be firm and enduring in our love for him but not to blindly accept without thinking for ourselves... even in matters of ritual and religious practise the enquiring attentive mind of one who is mentally active is important...

take for example what happened in new delhi this last week... hindus went into a frenzy and started digging up a pit that had fragrant sand in the belief that an idol would pop out... if any of them had a investigative, cool and rational mind they would have found out that the sweet smell was because a local perfume factory dumped some residual waste in the area...

jha, you seem to have the impression that i'm an overwhelmingly rational person who doesn't have a soft spot for the simpler issues of bhakti and prem, which most blind acts are invariably accompanied with...
i have broken down and cried in devotion for god.. prayer was one of the few times in my life i really shed tears.. but out of love for something i couldn't touch or feel or see, but i knew was there carrying me through the darkest,most ugly hours of my life... i'm not as cold-blooded as some think me to be...
no doubt the well-meaning pilgrims and devotees feel very much the same.. that is excellent - anbeh sivam, sivameh anbum - love is god, and god is love...
but doing so and losing all faculties of a reasoning mind and an active intellect is not beneficial...


i once read a very interesting piece of writing on the nature of religion.. it said that religion had two elements - the thick and the thin... the thick are the rituals, the prayers, bowing toward makkah or offering fruit and flowers at the mandir or making ahutis into the havan... the thin is the philosophy, the wisdom accumulated over millenia, the stuff that gives what we do meaning... it is the often unseen thread that holds religious faith together...

when one loses one of these two vital elements, you have imbalance and the religion cannot survive... the 17th century movements in france died out because they were entirely philosophical and had no physical forms of expression.. the faith of mighty egypt degenerated into plain rusted ritual... so did ancient judaism.. and then christ was born in a manger...
in all world cultures we will be able to find these two threads interwoven.. though sometimes one is taken enough notice of...

we seemed to have hit a pretty sticky situation with the value of puraans... i don't see them as axillary texts to the vedas so on that front, i have said that those who do read them must be able to sift truth from falsehood... without a discerning intellect, what is the use of reading puraans.. the veda is straightforward and gives moral teachings firsthand, but in the puraans truth is dressed up in pageant-gear to look fanciful and extravagant... to get the truth out of there, we must carry out something of a mental undressing of the puraans... it is not as difficult as it may sound...
isolate the grounding principle of a story, as i've done in my previous post to you, analyse it and apply it actively in one's life...

how can puranic mythology sharpen the mind for the vedas? with proper reasoning capacities we can see through the exaggerations and unnatural occurences to the sliver of vedic teaching, but otherwise it confounds the mind with mounds of illogical, inapplicable myth... if it's not active and fostering a greater understanding of oneself, how can be of constructive use?

you say i'm putting the whole thing upside down... well, maybe it needs to be put that way... study the veda, see that the universe is governed by one undying god whose eternal laws can be seen in operation in the world around us... realise that in order to discern truth from falsehood, one must have the right equipment, a strong reasoning buddhi... then go and enjoy the rich histories and legends of the puraans, having been properly prepared by the right means - vedic jnan and discrimation based on that...

for ages the veda was alone the scripture.. students studied it alone, unabetted by mythology... the puranas crept up to keep religion from dying out and sustaining interest in the subject after the vedas became incomprehensable in the original form... the vedic teaching is not too lofty for the common man - matri devo bhava, pitr devo bhava, acharya devo bhava... shraddhaya deyam, ashraddhaya adeyam, akshairma divyah - all those are good teachings from the brahmanas and upanishads and even from the mantra samhitas and there is no cause for scavenging truth from myth and falsehood

eg.rig ved - on liberality and giving to others - says,"one man who is selfish and feeds himself alone refusing to share his food with his starving brethren, is not fit to be a friend" (10.117.4 - please read this entire sukta, it has the most beautiful moral teachings of giving of oneself)
atharva ved commands: " share what you have with the less fortunate; your capacity for giving is augmented, even multiplied by the grace of god, if you are benevolent" (3.24.5)

there is much similar goodness in the puraans, but they are not as direct.. they need to be uncovered, untangled and interpreted... that is why i say develop first the discriminating intellect... develop that before even reading vedas (when translated by westerners intent on converting hindus or even indians influenced by them)... fire the mind with the practical, critical, reasoning spirit that will make them living glowing examples for the way we live our lives...

create the moral and psychological framework of righteous, critical thinking as enshrined in the vedas... only now, after years of reading the puranic stories, i have come to the ved.. and because of the satyarth prakash... not to undermine the puraans.. i loved the stories.. but they never actually did this mystical 'sharpening of the mind'... all i heard of the vedas was that a certain demon stole them and hid in the sea, or that brahma held them in one of his hands... the deep, monotheistic philosophy of the ved and the upanishads never really came up that often... i'm not being biased or speaking as an arya samaji... this is my honest opinion, untouched by sectarian influence...


in response to the snipe that aryas laugh at and repeat the illogical myths of the puraans to prove we have a discerning intellect, let me say that not once have i laughed at your stories or mocked at them... what i've done is point out mere examples in a galaxy of similar situations where aryas take a firm stance that the puraans contain unnecessary, illogical material... the reason we repeat the nonsensical dimensions of these is that we thirst for reform... we don't want future generations to be trapped in the mire of flowery, exaggerated myths if the present still blindly accept them and make no attempt to reinterpret them on a rational, sensible level...

i did not make any claims to knowledge of the natural order... if you remember, jha.. it is you who was challenging me to explain it to you... i can explain as much as i've learnt on a scholastic basis, and that is why i suggested contacting university faculties if you want a really good, detailed explanation... you know my age and the extent of my secondary education to know what i am capable of explaining to you...
if one doesn't want an answer or an attempt at an answer or feels confident enough in one's own knowledge of the subject, let the question be left unasked...

the cycle of regeneration occurs continously in the universe around us... that cyclical nature of life which the natural world glorifies and sustains itself is enough for me to believe the process of life and death is similar... i still maintain that the ved is consistent with what we do know as surety of the world... yajur ved tells the world and all its waters move around the sun.. samved sings that the earth walks around her father, the sun... the vedas describe the 33 devtas as the various natural forces of the universe... they are not inconsistent in that they do not say the world is flat, or on the backs of eight elephants or that dead bodies reawaken (resurrection) or that the sun is a god that chariot-races around the earth... describe it as childish if you feel it is... for me it a sign of the truth of the vedas and the glory of rta...

as always, a pleasure and a challenge to reply to you, jha...

Sri Suresh,

Thank you for the excellent post. Your humility is taking you very fast towards TRUTH or it may already have. Scriptural knowledge without bhakti and prema and Guru's blessings and guidance is like a pundit with scriptural knowledge crossing a river in a boat which has holes and without the skill to swim. It amounts to next to nothing. I hope some "so called jnanis with scriptural ahamkar" are able to grasp what you are saying. This does not mean that one should not study the scriptures. Such study should help the person to not only become intelligent and wise but also humble, polite and compassionate towards others. Suresh I consider you the genuine "arya" among many others in this forum to name a few like Sri Jha, Prem, Mukunda, Vinaire, Hariharan, Dr.SSR.,Bani, @co. Thankfully your messages are brief and sweet. Please continue.

Does God forgive the sins of His devotees or not?
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A.- No; for, He were to forgive their sins, His Law of Justice would be destroyed, and all men would become most sinful. Knowing that their sins will be forgiven, they will become fearless and will be greatly encourage to commit sins. For example, if the ruler of a country were to pardon the criminals, they would be encouraged to commit crimes greater still. For knowing well that the king will not punish them, they will be confident in their minds that they will get the king's pardon by folding their palms and doing other acts of humility. Even those who are not criminals, being no longer deterred by any fear of punishment, will begin to commit crimes. Therefore, it is but meet that God should give souls the just fruits of their deeds and not to forgive their sins.

(from the satyarth prakash, chap VII)

Does God forgive the sins of His devotees or not?

A.- No; for, He were to forgive their sins, His Law of Justice would be destroyed, and all men would become most sinful. Knowing that their sins will be forgiven, they will become fearless and will be greatly encourage to commit sins. For example, if the ruler of a country were to pardon the criminals, they would be encouraged to commit crimes greater still. For knowing well that the king will not punish them, they will be confident in their minds that they will get the king's pardon by folding their palms and doing other acts of humility. Even those who are not criminals, being no longer deterred by any fear of punishment, will begin to commit crimes. Therefore, it is but meet that God should give souls the just fruits of their deeds and not to forgive their sins.

(from the satyarth prakash, chap VII)

As I observe, the quarrel here is really between an orthodox and a liberal viewpoint. What is being confused here by the orthodox viewpoint is that “the religious practices are the truths.” They are looking at Puranas as the scriptural truth, whereas, Puranas were probably written as a quick solution to the unavailability of proper instruction to the broader public.

What seems to me is that Puranas were written for adults who were not immature and could apply some discrimination. I do not think that Puranas were written as stories for the entertainment of children.

Thus, Puranas are not indispensable if better means of instructions are available today. What is indispensable are the truth and insights contained in the Vedas.

But, then, do we have the Vedas in their completeness? I do not think so. A lot of them have been lost, but there has been enough material recovered that the lost portions can also be discovered by observant and disciplined minds.

Ashegan said:

“we don't want future generations to be trapped in the mire of flowery, exaggerated myths if the present still blindly accept them and make no attempt to reinterpret them on a rational, sensible level... “

Today we have the means to update the Puranas to more closely convey the truths of the Vedas. This should be done by responsible and enlightened persons in our society, and made available on a broad basis.

The greatest kindness and love one can show is to make the practice of Dharma more effective, and not to insist on a status quo that is bankrupt by visible evidence.

Shri Ashegan,

1.First of All I want to request you.
Whenever you write anything about puranic devathas please address them as Sri Hanuman, Sri Ganesh etc., Kindly do not use words like monkey,elephant etc.,
2.Does God forgive the sins of His devotees or not?
If you completely surrender yourself to God.Yes!
It will not end there! After surrenderring yourself you should remain like a real Bhakta forever.Persistence in Bhakti is not very easy.
Persistence in Jnana marga is also not easy.
A Jnani will have to be more careful than a bhakta.Ego will take over him unknowingly.

Kshama guna is one of the most important qualities of God (So called Jnani's cannot understand this)
when a Bhakta fills his entire conciousness with his Ishta devatha's thoughts there is no chance of sinning at all.That is complete surrender.God will definitely forgive such a bhakta's sins.
If the surrender is not complete then the natural laws of Karma will take over.
A jnani, on the other hand thinks that he can acquire all knowledge using his own intelligence.So Naturally God will not come in his way.
If the general masses (including me) believe that Sri Hanuman swallowed Surya, or Sri Ganesh rode on a mooshika..in what way it affects society?
I want to stress here that What you consider as reason,rational etc., is totally relative.
If feaces is filth to me for a pig it is very tasty.
The bottom line is this.
Vedas and puraanas (At least those believed to be compiled by vyasadeva) are complementary to each other.Bhakti marga (based on puranas) is in no way inferior to Jnana marga.
Also note that our Bhakti marga is in no way comparable to western religions.
A bhakta-sadhaka has all the qualities enjoined in the scriptures like shama-dama-ahimsa-aparigraha etc.,He will get up in the brahma-muhurta and perform all the required duties as per his dharma.Unlike a Jnani Ego cannot takeover him unknowingly. - Hari Om.

Sri Suresh,

I think you are misunderstanding Ashegan, and simply reacting to some words. Please don't try to make him feel guilty because he is not being disrespectful.

Try and understand what he is writing.

It may appear that the argument is between Jnana and Bhakti but that is not so. The argument is between correct practice and malpractice of Hinduism.

If correct practices are followed the results will be evident. Currently, Hinduism is stagnant and that stagnancy should not be defended.

Is Bhakti being practiced correctly by the masses. I think you will have to agree that it is not so, otherwise, you will make the practice of real Bhakti look quite ineffective.

Nobody is chiding Bhakti here, or trying to impose Jnana over Bhakti. Ashegan is simply trying to bring the awareness up regarding the current stagnancy so we all can overcome it.

One can be considered as a "Jnani" upon Self-Realization BUT NOT BEFORE. Examples of Jnanis are Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi, Sri Ramakkrishna Parahamsa, Swami Vivekanada and many many more.

As Sri Suresh has correctly stated in pseudo jnanis the ego or the ahamkar poses as the real Jnani. This error never happens to a bhakta.

A true bhakta does not care if his sins are forgiven are not. He is completely under the mercy of his ishta devata or Bhagavan Vishnu's jurisdiction. Even the punishment becomes a reward for such bhaktas. The question of sin never rises in a bhakta's mind. How can such a bhakta commit sin? Even if inadverdently a sin is commiteed by him he will willingly face the consequences as the blessings of God. It is mediocre minds devoid of bhakti and prema but filled with so called jnana that dwell on sins, karma and its consequences. I am not saying that I do not fall under this category at all but when I am attentive I can observe this mediocrity in myself during those moments of inattention. During the times of complete attention I fill into the category of a bhakta just like any other human being. So we are all bhaktas, not just me, during those moments of complete attention or meditation whether we have an ishta devata or not. So at no point in time am I a Jnani.

Dear Vinnaire,Ashegan,

Please excuse me If I have offended anybody.
I am only responding to the words like monkey,elephant etc., I responded to the concept of forgiving Sin and the mentality to trash Puraanas.
Do you consider Sri Meera bhai,sri Tulasi-das, Sri Ramakrishna paramahamsa (who during is childhood had gone into samadhi while playing the role of Lord Shiva),Sri Chaitanya, Sri Purandara dasa,Sri Basaveshwara, sri Andal, Alwars, Sri Narayana Bhattadiri, etc., etc., who believed completely in the puranas, and itihaasas-like Ramayana and Mahabharata, as fools?

If Yes then I will discontinue posting.If No, then try to close this unnecessary debate of debunking puraanas and itihaasas.Dear Participants..Please dont consider me as an Orthodox person trying to preserve all that is Old.I am trying to be real Hindu.
I want to state once again that Both Vedas and Puraanas ( Those compiled by Vyasadeva) are complimentary to each other...That JNANA MARGA which emphasises use of one's intelligence in getting spiritual knowledge, and Bhakti marga which emphasises on total surrender to Supreme GODhead inspired by the lives of great saints mentioned earlier, are both equal in all respects
-Hari Om.

Sri Suresh,

I have told you that you are a great asset to this forum. If you decide not to post anymore it will be a tremendous loss to me personally. At the same time we cannot order others not to post the way they feel. They are free to post just as you are. So please continue to post. Thank you.

Fondly

Sri Murali,
You can email me at sureshsmr@hotmail.com

Sri Vinaire,
In what way do you think hinduism is stangnant?
For me Hinduism really vibrant with all its magnificient temples,Great Alankaarams of Moorthis, young vedic scholars (trained by VHP), young musicians composing/singing in a highly devotional way,young & brilliant sanskrit scholars taking part in Avadhaanas,Yoga experts brimming with knowledge...different kinds of festivals..
Rath-yaatras,Kumbha-melas, Lectures, satsang etc etc., ofcourse there are gory practices like untouchability, animal sacrice etc etc which we all Hindus should collectively work to eradicate.

I dont understand what you mean by Bhakti not being correctly followed? Bhakti even in its incipient stage will uplift a sadhaka.But Jnana is not like that.Jnana is like walking on a parallel bar.Lot of risk of falling down -Hari Om

Sri Suresh,

It is unfortunate that you were unable to understand my last two posts, just as you have misunderstood Ashegan's.

Same misunderstanding I can see coming from Murali. It is truly sad that there is a breakdown of communication here.

The real issue is what is needed to revive the correct practice of Hinduism in India. As I see this issue is totally being ignored by you and Murali.

Is that because you are satisfied with the way things are with the practice of Hinduism today?

I don't think I can be any more direct than this in my question. This is not a subtlety of "Jnana" that I am applying. This is a straight question.

Can you answer?

Sri Suresh,

I think I got my answer from you, just as posted my last post.

Thank you.

Sri Suresh,

I think I got my answer from you, just as I posted the last post.

Thank you.

Dear Ashegan,
You rightly upbraid me for using words like 'officious', 'stupidly arrogant' and other such choice epithets but they were never intended against you, they were, and are intended for the one who is invariably using worse expletives against the rest of us, viz Ramesh.

I did not want to name him in my previous post because it only encourages such people to further explete /excrete? themselves, if you see what I mean.

You Ashegan are a rising star who will attach four moons to the Eternal Dharam, thus renewing its vitality and vigour, as has continued to happen througout the yugas, regardless.

PS. Can someone please say where the 'four moons' comes from?
Om shanti
Jiten

Namaste Muralidhar Raoji,
It amounts to next to nothing. I hope some "so called jnanis with scriptural ahamkar" are able to grasp what you are saying.
Isn’t Jnana required for grasping?

This does not mean that one should not study the scriptures.
Do you mean people should read more of Sri Krishna Leelas and become sick like him?

Such study should help the person to not only become intelligent and wise but also humble, polite and compassionate towards others.
Such a study will also help people become sex maniacs.

Suresh I consider you the genuine "arya" among many others in this forum to name a few like Sri Jha, Prem,
OK Mr. Chancellor. What about you sir?

Thankfully your messages are brief and sweet.
And also stupid

Ramesh

Dear Suresh,

Please do not take Ramesh's message toward me, you and other Hindus personally or seriously. I am sure if we met him in person he is a decent human being like all of us. Personally I am so used to his messages that it does not hurt me one bit.

fondly

Namaste Sureshji,

Whenever you write anything about puranic devathas please address them as Sri Hanuman, Sri Ganesh etc., Kindly do not use words like monkey,elephant etc.,
How about calling them Sri Monkey, Sri Elephant etc?

2.Does God forgive the sins of His devotees or not? If you completely surrender yourself to God.Yes!
Pure Escapism

After surrendering yourself you should remain like a real Bhakta forever.
And remains a fool forever.

Persistence in Bhakti is not very easy. Persistence in Jnana marga is also not easy.
Bhakti without Jnana is ignorance.

A Jnani will have to be more careful than a bhakta. Ego will take over him unknowingly.
How can one be a Jnani without knowing what ego is?

Kshama guna is one of the most important qualities of God (So called Jnani's cannot understand this)
Q) Is God Just as well as Merciful
A.~ Yes, he is both.
Q. These two attributes are opposed to each other, since Justice consists in giving a person the just amount of pleasure or pain - neither more nor less - according to the nature of his deeds, while mercy consisted in letting the offender go unpunished. How could He be both merciful and just at the same time?
A.- Justice and mercy differ only in name. The object served by justice is the same as accomplished by mercy. Now the object of infliction punishment through justice is to prevent people from committing crimes and thereby enable them to be freed from pain and misery. What is the object of mercy but to rid people of misery? Your definitions of justice and mercy are not correct, because the infliction of just punishment in exact accordance with the amount of crime is called justice.
If the offender be not punished, mercy will be destroyed, for suffering one such criminal, a a robber, to go unpunished amounts to giving pain to thousands of righteous and law-abiding people. What mercy can ther be, the, in allowing one man to go unpunished and making others suffer? It will be an act of mercy indeed to that robber to keep him in prison and thereby prevent him from further commission of crimes. It will also be an act of mercy to thousands of other people to rid them of that robber or dacoit by putting him to death of keeping him in prison.
Q. What is then the object of having two terms - mercy and justice- both having the same meaning? It is useless to have two terms, it would have been far better to have only one. This shows that they do not mean the same.
A.~ Is not an idea expressed by more than one word, and cannot one word be expressive of more than one idea?
Q. Yes, it is so.
A.- Why did you doubt it then?
Q.Because we hear it said in the world.
A.- We hear both true and false statements being made in this world, but it is our duty to discriminate between them after due reflection. Behold the infinite mercy of God that He has created all things in this world for the good of all, and given them all freely! What mercy can be greater than this? On the other hand, the inequality in the condition of men - some are in a state of misery - while others in a state of happiness - is a clear proof of the operation of His Law of justice. They - mercy and justice - only differ in the fact that the intense desire in one's mind to bestow happiness on all and accordingly i mercy, whilst the outward action - such as the just infliction of punishment on an offender by imprisoning him or putting him to death is - justice. The one object served by both is to rescue all from sin and consequent suffering


when a Bhakta fills his entire conciousness with his Ishta devatha's thoughts there is no chance of sinning at all.
Isn’t Jnana required to know the difference between sin and righteousness? If there is a Ishta Devata then there should be Aishta Devata. Or Why show partiality to few Devatas making them ista?

That is complete surrender.God will definitely forgive such a bhakta's sins.
It means you can bribe (bhakti) your god (fake). (Route for escapism is Bhakti)

If the surrender is not complete then the natural laws of Karma will take over.
Looks like there are many loopholes in your god’s (fake) justice. Such a god (fake) is no better than a sinner is.

A jnani, on the other hand thinks that he can acquire all knowledge using his own intelligence. So Naturally God will not come in his way.
Wouldn’t that be better than bribing your stupid fake god?

If the general masses (including me) believe that Sri Hanuman swallowed Surya, or Sri Ganesh rode on a mooshika..in what way it affects society?
How about Krishna screwing 16000 females?

If feaces is filth to me for a pig it is very tasty.
If you are deeply engrossed in Bhakti how would you know the difference?

The bottom line is this. Vedas and puraanas (At least those believed to be compiled by vyasadeva) are complementary to each other.Bhakti marga (based on puranas) is in no way inferior to Jnana marga.
How can Wisdom and foolishness be complementary?

A bhakta-sadhaka has all the qualities enjoined in the scriptures like shama-dama-ahimsa-aparigraha etc.,
And also little bit of stupidity.

He will get up in the brahma-muhurta and perform all the required duties as per his dharma.
Fooling himself and others.

Unlike a Jnani Ego cannot takeover him unknowingly.
A Jnani has perfect control over his indriyas. How can one be called a Jnani if ego takes over him unknowingly?

Ramesh

Dear Viniare,

You are welcome to disagree as no two minds can agree completely. But you have to specify what you are disagreeing about in my messages.

Fondly

A true bhakta does not expect mercy from his ishta devatha or Lord Vishnu. He does not question the will of God. Whatever punishment is due he bears them without complaints. He does not expect God to make compromises on his/her behalf. The bhakta is totally in love with his/her ishta devatha or God and therefore has completely surrendered to God. In Jnana marg the sadhaka pursues the path of self enquiry or self investigation. For this jnana or the limited faculties of intellgence is required just as in the case of bhakti. What Suresh said was that ahamkar sometimes comes in the way as is being displayed by some participants.

Sri Ashegan,

Kindly consider keeping the length of a post within manageable limits. Let me follow my own suggestion and reply you as briefly as I can.

Bhakti to Isvara is a very good karma. God does not forgive for nothing, we reap the rewards of bhakti and that is commonly understood as God's forgiveness.

A bhakta prays for bhakti and more bhakti. Or, what a bhakta seeks through bhakti is extremely personal affair between a bhakta and Isvara. No rationalization or intellectualization can be welcome there. That applies to Jnana also. Bhakti and jnana should seek inspiration from each other but should never try to influence or interfere.

Almighty certainly wishes us to be rational and intelligent but He does not command us to keep judging others' "functional intellect". It is unfair to suggest applying "investigative, cool and rational mind", to the people of Delhi after knowing everything. Hundreds of murtis and mandirs would have remained buried had it not been for people following their intuitions and dreams and going into a "frenzy" to uncover lost treasures.

"but doing so and losing all faculties of a reasoning mind and an active intellect is not beneficial..." Certainly not. Assuming that they often do so is not reasonable and intellectual.

About Vedas and Puranas, I am not willing to stand on my head. I accept my own experience and Swami Vivekanand's teachings on going from kindergarten to university. "how can puranic mythology sharpen the mind for the vedas?" Ask yourself. You are forgetting the path your own spiritual journey has taken since childhood. My own parents and billions of Hindus are spiritual and decent people, thanks to Puranas and Itihaas. There are thousands of sadhus, sants and devoted people, thanks to Puraans and Itihaas. I don't know how many reach the peak of spirituality and philosophy, as Sri Vinaire asks, but millions do rise spiritually to some extent through the established path, as suggested by Swami Vivekanand. One might even ask how many attain Self-realization through Yoga in one lifetime and it is indeed very rare. But the fact remains that Yoga helps spiritually even if one does reach the top in one lifetime.

Even if I accept your theory that "the puranas crept up to keep religion from dying out and sustaining interest in the subject after the vedas became incomprehensable in the original form...", that reason is still valid for me. The moral of Vedas and much more is taught through the colorful and interesting stories of Puraans throughout Bharat by sants and sadhus in satsangs. If you recite Veda in these satsangs, you will hardly have any audience. Having said all these, there is no doubt that there have been manipulations and distortions in Puraans and there should be an effort to correct them. Puraans contain some unnecessary and illogical material but they are not only that.

Oxford Dictionary defines natural laws as "correct statement or invariable sequence between specified conditions and specified phenomenon." Please note the word, CORRECT. This can be subjective or objective. Natural laws, as used in the discipline suggested by you, considers correct as that which can be shown objectively. And, this is possible only for that which is manifested, which is subject of space, time and matter. That portions of veda which deal with temporal/transitory matters conform to natural laws which can be demonstrated. The eternal teachings are believed to conform to natural laws of all time and all place but can't be demonstrated. That does not make them wrong, as Sri Vinaire correctly pointed out. However, they cannot be shown to conform to known natural laws. That is what separates modern science from Hinduism.

Sri Ashegan,

Kindly consider keeping the length of a post within manageable limits. Let me follow my own suggestion and reply you as briefly as I can.

Bhakti to Isvara is a very good karma. God does not forgive for nothing, we reap the rewards of bhakti and that is commonly understood as God's forgiveness.

A bhakta prays for bhakti and more bhakti. Or, what a bhakta seeks through bhakti is extremely personal affair between a bhakta and Isvara. No rationalization or intellectualization can be welcome there. That applies to Jnana also. Bhakti and jnana should seek inspiration from each other but should never try to influence or interfere.

Almighty certainly wishes us to be rational and intelligent but He does not command us to keep judging others' "functional intellect". It is unfair to suggest applying "investigative, cool and rational mind", to the people of Delhi after knowing everything. Hundreds of murtis and mandirs would have remained buried had it not been for people following their intuitions and dreams and going into a "frenzy" to uncover lost treasures.

"but doing so and losing all faculties of a reasoning mind and an active intellect is not beneficial..." Certainly not. Assuming that they often do so is not reasonable and intellectual.

About Vedas and Puranas, I am not willing to stand on my head. I accept my own experience and Swami Vivekanand's teachings on going from kindergarten to university. "how can puranic mythology sharpen the mind for the vedas?" Ask yourself. You are forgetting the path your own spiritual journey has taken since childhood. My own parents and billions of Hindus are spiritual and decent people, thanks to Puranas and Itihaas. There are thousands of sadhus, sants and devoted people, thanks to Puraans and Itihaas. I don't know how many reach the peak of spirituality and philosophy, as Sri Vinaire asks, but millions do rise spiritually to some extent through the established path, as suggested by Swami Vivekanand. One might even ask how many attain Self-realization through Yoga in one lifetime and it is indeed very rare. But the fact remains that Yoga helps spiritually even if one does reach the top in one lifetime.

Even if I accept your theory that "the puranas crept up to keep religion from dying out and sustaining interest in the subject after the vedas became incomprehensable in the original form...", that reason is still valid for me. The moral of Vedas and much more is taught through the colorful and interesting stories of Puraans throughout Bharat by sants and sadhus in satsangs. If you recite Veda in these satsangs, you will hardly have any audience. Having said all these, there is no doubt that there have been manipulations and distortions in Puraans and there should be an effort to correct them. Puraans contain some unnecessary and illogical material but they are not only that.

Oxford Dictionary defines natural laws as "correct statement or invariable sequence between specified conditions and specified phenomenon." Please note the word, CORRECT. This can be subjective or objective. Natural laws, as used in the discipline suggested by you, considers correct as that which can be shown objectively. And, this is possible only for that which is manifested, which is subject of space, time and matter. That portions of veda which deal with temporal/transitory matters conform to natural laws which can be demonstrated. The eternal teachings are believed to conform to natural laws of all time and all place but can't be demonstrated. That does not make them wrong, as Sri Vinaire correctly pointed out. However, they cannot be shown to conform to known natural laws. That is what separates modern science from Hinduism.

Mr. Ramesh,

Hinduism does recognize the different grades of religious experience, and the need for spiritual evolution from the lower forms of worship to the higher ones. But, at the same time, it believes that it is not necessary to change the label of one's beliefs in order to achieve progress in inward life. True spiritual experience is not transverse from one formal belief to another, but vertical from the less to more of spirituality.
The Hindu genius has always stood for the ideal of charity in spirit and hospitality of mind. Where there is quarrel, there is no understanding; where there is no understanding, there is no truth. Therefore it is that Hindu culture has sought to be pervasive of all aspects of the pilgrim's journey to TRUTH.

The purpose of religion should be to let the spirit grow in freedom, and not to strangle it in a strait-jacket. The gretest men of Bharat have been examplars of the gospel of spiritual freedom. That Bharat has made it possible for such men to appear in every age is the glory of our ancient and yet living culture.

I do believe in eradicating unsuitable rituals and rites, but the different paths taken for spiritual advancement should be left as it is for an individual's choice. After all Bagawan Ramakrishna, Yogananda Paramahansa, Swami Vivekananda, Satya Sai Baba, Ramana Maharishi, Swami Dayananda Saraswati and etc.. attained self realization through different paths. But do believe that the TRUTH this souls attained is none other then the "BRAHMAN."

Thandabani

I don’t think Ashegan's posts are any longer than the one's I have seen often from Jha and Vishal. Anyway, I find quite a few unsubstantiated opinions in Sri Jha’s post. Namely,

“Bhakti to Isvara is a very good karma. God does not forgive for nothing, we reap the rewards of bhakti and that is commonly understood as God's forgiveness.”

Bhakti is an approach to enlightenment rather than a Karma. It converges to the same point that Jnana converges to. That’s all it is - an approach. Karma's are minimized in this approach if not eliminated altogether.

“A bhakta prays for bhakti and more bhakti. Or, what a bhakta seeks through bhakti is extremely personal affair between a bhakta and Isvara. No rationalization or intellectualization can be welcome there. That applies to Jnana also. Bhakti and jnana should seek inspiration from each other but should never try to influence or interfere.”

This is again a mere personal opinion. I have never seen it expressed this way in authoritative texts. It makes you think that Jnana and Bhakti are totally isolated from each other and somehow come together only at the end of the seeking.

“Almighty certainly wishes us to be rational and intelligent but He does not command us to keep judging others' "functional intellect".

This is again a personal opinion. I do not understand why Almighty is being used as a front. Who is Almighty? How do you define It?

What is generally referred to as the natural laws are the physical laws that are derived from the observation of the physical phenomena. Similarly, we have spiritual laws that have been derived from the observation of the spiritual phenomena. The effects of them can be demonstrated just as clearly as the effects of the physical laws.

I do not understand what is being attempted here. All that seems pertinent to me is that Puranas are much junior to the Vedas and they need a major update to convey the truths of the Vedas in the scientific world of today. As such they have a very limited value and to promote them as they are, or to use them in the religious education of children today is very much out of sync.

We have often heard it said that West has dynamism but lacks spirituality.

Similarly, we can say that East has spirituality but lacks dynamism.

Remember the message of Swami Viveknanda, "Awake! Arise! ..."

We need to put that message into practice. We need to pour coal on the fire of what would give us the fastest results.

A bhakta does not bribe his ishta devatha nor is the ishta devatha fake. As if the the bhakta is a con artist and the ishta devatha is naive. Give us a break. Bhagavan Hanuman is an isvarakoti or a celestial being and therefore extremely sacred and powerful. A bhakta is no less intelligent than a sadhak who is following the jnana marg but has not yet attained the state of a Jnani or turiya avastha (fourth state). A Jnani is one who has realized the Self. The ishta devatha is the link between the bhakta and the Paramatma. Upon realization the bhakta becomes a Jnani by merging into his/her Self.

vinaire, i agree that the vedas need to be reevaluated and made coherent with modern knowledge and what has been recovered from the veda... your later comments on what i was really trying to advocate is much appreciated.. thank you.

suresh bhai, i'm sorry if i hurt you but i've always heard that hanumanji was a vanar and called the monkey god.. if it'll make you feel better, i'll say sri hanuman next time.. but know that to arya samaj, sri hanuman was a great military commander and friend to sri raam, and that both of them were exceptional, but human, figures.. so i'll have to differentiate between the arya interpretation of hanuman and the vaishnava... but that is an issue of faith, and i wouldn't like to pursue it at at the present moment...

on the subject of forgiveness of sins, i'm not prepared to budge at all.. you can be the greatest bhakta and perform lifetimes of good deeds, but you still must pay for the wrong you have done... god is niyaayakaari and impartial in judgement.. he does not favour some over others to forgive their sins... he punishes us for our sin so that we will be dissuade from sinning... that is his mercy and his justice unto us (i will post the arguments in this regard from satyarth prakash)..

and who has said that a jnani thinks he can reach god merely by his own limited intelligence? does a jnani not feel shraddha like you? if one is so enwrapped in ego and self-pride that one feels one can get to the level of god by self exertion alone and no faith or devotion, then one is not a jnani... jnan is one facet of the steps to moksha, not an end on its own... it is a cog in the machine of dharmik action...

you may believe that hanumanji swallowed the sun or that ganesh rides on a rat, but don't stubbornly cling on to a belief without giving some thought as well... the sun is a massive body, hundreds of thousands of time greater in volume than the earth.. sri hanuman was born and lived on earth.. and the earth is a small planet that moves in orbit around the sun... one cannot breathe in the airless vacuum of outer space and nor can one explode to such a size that one can swallow the sun, which is one of the 33 devatas described in the shatapatha brahmana... where would hanumanji stand if he were to go into outer space? how would he breathe?

the reason the authors of the puraan or other text wrote that hanumanji swallowed the sun was that they probably thought the sun was a small orb of light in the sky and didn't know that it existed millions of miles away sending its rays by the power of god, to reach us here on earth... but now we do know that... we can make an informed judgement... you can carry on feeling bhakt for sri hanuman, but now you know that that earth-bound people or animals cannot wrench the sun from the sky and consume it...

it does matter that people become enlightened to true knowledge about the universe as we learn more and more about it...
ignorance will spread like a sickness if some say 'i believe the earth is flat.. why are you worried about what i believe? i'm not harming anybody.. let me carry on with my belief even if it's wrong'...
if everybody thought like that and entertained different beliefs when the truth is blaringly obvious, the world would not progress in gaining knowledge of how this intricate universe works... we must all, even if in a miniscule way, make an effort to be knowledgeable...

agne naya supathaa raaye - god is light and knowledge... to become greater in knowledge is to become closer to god
the almighty advises us in the veda that we must become knowledgeable and aquaint ourselves with the workings of physical creation as well... vidya is not a bad thing... if you take it in the right way - objectively and calmly - you will be the richer for it...

i'm not trying to be arrogant or to tell you what to believe... i'm just giving a viewpoint on the situation.. you don't have to accept it.. just hear it out and make a decision based on sound thinking.. that's all...
there can be no compulsion in faith... but there is the inner need to be in accordance with the commandments of the almighty...

aayagau prishinamrarmidan maataram purah
pitaram cha prayantsvah

the earth with all its waters revolves around the sun
-yajurved 3,6

aakrashnena rajasaa varntamaano nivo shayatramritam martya cha
hiranyayena savitaa rathe naa devo yaati bhuvanaani pashyan

the glorious, resplendent sun that gives life and energy to the world - animate and inanimate - through rain (water cycle) and solar rays, and makes all physical objects visible, attracts all other planets and revolves in its own orbit, but does not move around other planets...

yajurved 33.43


are the stories of the puraans complementary to this? would anything that goes against this acute, but divine description of the solar system be complementary with the vedas? that is what i'm saying... you may gladly make the hypothesis that the puraans are in accordance with the vedas, but investigate... read... and see for yourself if that is really true...


please don't take me as a threat or someone trying to denigrate your religion... i will say a thousand times that that is NOT my intention.. all i want to do is stimulate discussion in an objective, constructive way... if i am detracting from that purpose, i would appreciate it if someone could show me and help me to change that...

suresh, please don't leave this thread... i've found your posts very interesting and worthwhile.. and no, i don't think that your great bhaktas were fools... all i say is that investigate for yourself.. see for yourself.. don't just say 'if it worked for them, it'll work for me'... be an active enquirer into the books that they advocated.. and never be afraid to question.. arise and awake - as vinaire quoted from swami vivekanand.. then this annoying arya samaji will say his 'namaste's' and be gone...

i regard all three margas as equal... none is superior to the other... but i do suggest that we all incorporate a little bit of each into our spiritual lives... only bhakt but no discretion and thinking is not good, and only thinking and no action or bhakt is not good either... let us aim for balance... i agree with you that those who are too preoccupied with jnan, should be wary of falling into egoistic thinking... and those firm in bhakti must not lapse into intellectual dormancy...

jiten, i cannot accept such glowing praise... say that to a mahatma :), not a wrangling cyber-arya like me... i cannot deal well with applause.. criticism is so much easier to deal with... anyway i believe each one of us has a few moons stuck in the pockets of our minds, and one day the time will come when we find them, and then hindu dharma will rival jupiter in heaven, in the number of its moons...

rameshji has a more head-on way of dialogue than me.. if you read his posts calmly and objectively i'm sure you'll find the good in them too...

jha, sometimes the allegations are asking for a lengthy answer, but as you've asked, i will try to curtail them...

vinaire has given a worthy comeback to what you say about bhakti... indeed, it is an approach, a way or a marga, and doesn't count as a deed in itself... word, thought and deed based in bhakti may well earn a stock of good karma...

bhakti and jnan are complementary.. one might be predisposed to one marg, but that doesn't mean one totally ignores the other...

if we didn't look out for others, civilisation would crumble.. it is imperative that we help others develop a functional intellect if we can see that it is static and blindly following something unquestioningly.. we do not have a buddhi and the ability of vivek for nothing...
you missed the point i was making when i wrote about the new delhi murti-seekers in the sand... why didn't any of them enquire about the smell? inform the local municipality.. have it investigated... why suddenly jump and get into a frenzy dgging the ground looking for a murti that isn't there? where's the reasoning behind that? that is what i call a non-functional, static buddhi lost in blind faith...
about people following 'dreams' and 'visions' , i'm reminded of a very similar query in the satyarth prakash... i'll post it later...

if you must know the truth, jha, puraans led me to blindly accepting worlds of myth and almost led me to the doors of islam... the gods of the puraans lie and cheat and steal like ordinary people... they become aroused and lustful like any one of us... the demons do penance and study the vedas and live good lives.. all these celestial figures are almost human, and not morally perfect ones at that... it seems like the whole moral order of the puraans is inverted... these books might have attracted lots of listeners but that's because the common man doesn't want to think and activate the mind.. passively accepting is just so much easier... that is why you say i wouldn't have an audience if i had to read the veda... i realise that... if the conciousness isn't there, there'd be no point to reciting the shruti...

that is why i have not said - go burn your puraans... what i said was develop the right way of reading them.. not blindly lapping up every word without discretion and active thinking.. make the reading of the puraans applicable to modern life.. trim it of what is known to be false and misleading.. keep the story and allegory but reinterpret it on a moral/abstract level as well... there is no use saying it is in accordance with the ved..
show people how.. quote from the vedas if necessary.. create the atmosphere that will lead to the desire to study the actual vedas themselves.. let them know the puraans are paving the way to understand the mighty word of god himself... let hindus unite to correct and reintroduce the puraans as texts that can be readily understood and applied to our own lives... read the example i gave of samudra manthan...

it is good that you are so versed in what constitutes natural law (i trust i won't need to be quizzed on this in the future then : )... the vedas deal with the sum total of what mortals can experience on every level... and not all of that has to do with natural law.. it is just one of the many criteria swamiji has enumerated in his magnum opus to praise the infallibility of the veda...

Mr. Ashegan,

The vedas are also responsible for bhakti. I don't think it originated from Puranas.

According to Swami Gambhirananda (President, Advaita Ashrama, Mayavati, Almora) has this to say about the origin of bhakti.

"In the school of bhakti, there are often meditations on God based on the meaning of the letters of his name. The Upanishads also abound in such meditations. Among the so called later Upanishads, in which the bhakti element is strikingly in evidence, the Gopala-purvata-paniya Upanishad (1) says: 'Krsi implies the earth, and na implies bliss. Their combination means Krishna who is supreme Brahman.' Similarly, the older Upanishads prescribe upasanas based on the meaning of letters and suggestiveness of sound. The Chandogya (VIII.3.3) says that hedaya (heart) is a name of God, for its derivetive meaning is hrdi-ayam-He is in the heart.

Then, again, there is the idea of dependence on God. For instance, the Narayana says, 'I take refuge in the deity Durga', and the Svetasvara, which is counted among the older Upanishads, takes 'refuge in Brahman for the sake of salvation' (VI.18). The latter Upanishad also uses the word bhakti in its usual sense (VI.23). Instructions for japa (repetation) of a name of God or a mantra occur very often. Besides, there are references to grace: 'By him is He realized to whom He is full of grace', and 'through the grace of the deity'. The presence of these elements in the Vedas demolishes the theory of the Puranic origin of bhakti."

So, I don't find anything wrong in bakti towards deities. May be Swami Dayananda Sarasvati removed it from his teachings, but do accept the truth that bakti too originated from the same Vedas.

Thandabani

Shree Rama
Regarding the question of whether God removes the sins of a devotee, yes he does. The idea is that the law of karma has hold over you as long as actions are done with attachment and desires of the fruit but once actions are done without desire and attachment and done for the sake of God then karma no longer has affect. The surrender of the soul, ahamkara, actions to the Supreme removes karma from the shoulders of the jiva and places the burden on the Supreme. The jiva upon self surrender or following the path of prappati tells the Supreme, "oh lord, i do not care for all of this, my ego, my good and my bad, these actions are done only for your sake, the fruits of these actions are yours, the actions themselves are yours, all i want is you, you are the only one who can protect me from sin and samsara, you are my only refuge, surrender to your feet now it is your job to protect me."

This comes from the upanshids which say "It is not by sacrifices, or actions, or study of vedas, or knowledge does one gain moksha but it is whom the self chooses." (this is a massive paraphrasing because i don't have access my upanshids right now, i am at a friends house.)
This also stems from the Gita and Ramayana in which Krishna and Rama both said that anyone that seeks shelther at their feet will be granted moksha for sure. This is the charanam shloka of the Gita:
"Completely renouncing all dharmas, seek Me alone as refuge, I will release you from all sins. Do not grieve."
The act of doership and ego causes karma to acculmate, karma must be either burnt off or must be removed. The burning of fruits of karma cannot fully occur because to remove sin one must do more acts with the intent to remove sin and do good, therefore causing more punya to acculmate. This causes a infinite regress and puts us in the position we are still in today. On the other hand, if we surrender to God and surrender to him out of love for him, without any expectations of moksha or punya or papa but out of pure love and devotion, God himself out of his infinite compassion and mercy and do to his promises will remove papa and grant us self-realization.
Think of this as a computer program that has a infinite loop, the loop will continuing going until either two things the conditions within the code are met or until the programmer changes the program or modifies it. Law of Karma=program, salvation or moksha consists of meeting the codes spefications or the programmer modifying the code. As long as one continues to build up punya or papa they will be within the confines of samsara.
The path to the Supreme is not exclusively bhakthi, jnana or karma but is rather a culmination of the three which ends up being prappati. Prappati has bhakthi in it because the jiva feels this intense spiritual longing and love for the Supreme, it possesses jnana because only through jnana does one realize the relationship of jiva and brahman and it possesses karma yoga because actions are dedicated to God without attachment of fruit or desires. Prappati is also the easiest path because all of these actions i have described instantly fall into place, it does not require all the intense practices and requirements that is prescribed in bhakthi, jnana or karma yogas.

Shree Rama
Shree Ramanujaya Namah
Bhagavathe Vaasudevaya Namah
Namo Narayanaya Namah
Harihi Om
Shree Mahalakshmi Kataaksham
-Mukunda

The Law of Karma is basically the Law of Cause and Effect.

Karma is prompted by one’s desire to respond to a situation. Karma depends on how one estimates that situation and responds to it. For example, a person finds himself starving. He desires to obtain some food and/or money. So he makes an estimates

(1) the resources ne has,

(2) the survival not just of oneself, but of others too, and,

(3) the exchange, that is, to obtain something of value to oneself, one should also give something of value to another.

His actions are then based on this estimation of effort.

So, this person now goes and robs another person for a quick, immediate resolution of the situation. This hurts another person’s survival. It also violates the idea of exchange. The situation doesn’t really resolve on a long-term basis. The cycle of action is left incomplete and hanging.

Or, he assesses his skills and finds a job to earn money on a steady basis. This exchange enhances the survival of him as well as that of another. The situation is resolved on a long-term basis. No cycle of action is left incomplete and hanging.

A sin (bad karma), then, depends on an incorrect estimation of effort required to handle a situation however big or small. It is a cycle that is left hanging, until the person can estimate the effort correctly, and then complete what he started to the intended effect.

So, a person misunderstands something, and unintentionally commits an error. He watches the effect in horror that he never intended. He can now do two things:

(1) He may take responsibility for his error by making amends, and go back and handle the initial misunderstanding so the subsequent effect would be as he intends, or

(2) He can explain away the effect by cooking up a reason, and never go back and handle the initial misunderstanding. The error continues in one form or another.

It is easy to see that there is a residue left in the latter course of action. There is an incomplete cycle of action. This is what the Law of Karma addresses.

By ignoring one’s responsibility for what one has done, one accumulates ignorance. This ignorance then lowers one’s abilities and so it goes.

The god then becomes human.

Correction of typo:

"So he estimates

(1) the resources he has, ..."

sri bani, not once in all my posts have i said bhakti is not mentioned in vedas or is anti-vedic.. you are misunderstanding the fundamental point of my argument - which is that bhakti without any recourse to reason, use of the buddhi and the following of blind faith without a questioning attitude is not beneficial to any human being... try to link that up with those allegations...

swami dayanand never excluded devotion from the aryan way of worship.. can such an assumption be made without reading his work yourself? the aspirant is advised to feel great unlimited devotion to the almighty god and ponder his works and wisdom, but that does not mean losing his god-given faculties of a reasoning, intelligent mind that can think for itself and does not behave like a lemming, leaping over the cliffs of blind acceptance into the sea of a static intellect and the rocks of religious indolence...

sri mukunda, forgive me but i cannot hold much adoration for such an unjust god that would overlook the sins of an individual merely because they profess repentance and non-attachment.. the assasin is just following orders, he isn't killing for pleasure, it is his livelihood.. but through his actions, children are orphaned, nations are made leaderless, unnecessary suffering is caused... will he not be struck done in this birth or the next by the supreme justice of the almighty god... man must exercise discretion in whatever he does... is simply performing action in a non-attached way enough? what if those actions aren't good?

yes, god must protect you from sin... he must guide you away from temptation and that is what we pray for... but if we give in to the vritr inside ourselves and commit a sin disregarding the moral and ethical codes of dharma, one must be punished for that... the law of karma is something we can be sure of in the universe.. it gives us comfort that whatever wrong is done unto us, the divine justice shall take its course... if it were not for this everlasting law, evil would be rife on earth... people must suffer for their crimes, there is no loophole to escape the all-seeing eye of the almighty..
asmaan vishmaani deva vayunaani vidwaan
he alone knows our thoughts and deeds (and gives just consequence)

What is BLIND FAITH?

BLIND FAITH: Misinterpreting the Truth, then believing in that misinterpretation of the Truth, and then showing no willingness to examine it anew.

That is the lethargy Swami Vivekananda talked about.

A person can live NOT-ISING the reality, and thinking everything is hunky-dory when it is not. Sooner or later the truth may hit. But sometimes it never hits, and that person goes through another life on his way down the spiral. He becomes more and more stupified and mechanical.

One can only try out of kindness to get that person to look. But that is all one can do.

Dear Ashegan
It is the dahrmic duty of us elders to encourage young people in all their studies and especially of the Devbhasha and the Veda.

Sri Mukund is another rising star as is someone I know in London, he is even younger than you but he only writes poetry in Sanskrit at the moment.
To me all such endeavours are small miracles of our divine teachings; as far as I know, none of you have ever been pressured to follow any particular line of study.

Looking forward to following all yours, and numerous other young people of Bharat's progress in the next century,
(It needs no acknowledgement.)

dhanyavaad, jitenji... it's great the hindu youth are taking an initiative to understand and appreciate the veda... personally, i hope to oneday be at least a dvivedi and do my part to keep the oral tradition of shruti from dying out...

Shree Rama
Ashegan, just because God is loving and compassionate to the infinite does not take away from his justice quality. He is impartial and just, he does not differentiate between his devotee and a non-devotee the law of karma works the same from them both. But once a jiva performs prappati or utter self-surrender then the karma done by the jiva is no longer clinging to the jiva because he has surrendered his very ahamkara, pride, doership, fruit and so on. I take it for granted that God knows the difference between a person who professes non-attachment and repentence and a person who actually seeks non-attachment and repentence. The very idea is that once a person adopts this path of self-surrender no longer will they continue to commit such "reprehensible" actions, and if they do the law of karma applies, God only protects those who are sincere and are trying. Even if they fail at trying He is there for him. A prappana or one who takes prappati follows a moral code. Your idea of an assassin fits perfectly well into my previous statement, the assassin does kill with attachment to the fruits of his actions, he kills so that he can get money, that money is the fruit of his actions therefore he is still doing continually karma. When Arjuna killed in the Mahabharata war, he killed out of duty and dharma, and without attachment of winning or losing but for the sake of dharma, he left the outcome to Shri Krishna's hands.
If you sincerely take one step towards God he will take a million steps back to you just to show you that his love for you is infinite.
God is not some harsh parent, he is loving and compassionate. He is waiting for a jiva to surrender themselves to him so that he can come and protect them.
As Shri Ramanuja explains:"This state of performing work unattached which is based on the knowledge of the eternal self and which aims at the state of steady understanding, is the bramhi state which brings about the attainment of th brahman (ie. the self)."
Svetasvatara Upanshid: " Being desirous of winning salvation, i seek refuge."
God is both the object of attainment and the means of attainment, you can only reach God through God not some other path.
God is love and His love pervades us and we can experience it if we simply let it.
Shree Rama
-Mukunda

I made a very sincere suggestion to keep a single post within manageable length. Sri Vinaire obviously has too my personal grudges against me, and Sri Vishal, to take even a suggestion in good spirit. Sri Vinaire, please write as long posts as you like.

Sri Vinaire, whatever I write here is my opinion, unless mentioned otherwise. I rarely see any substantiation of your such statements as "this is a fact" and "that is truth". I hope you remember the-above-conforms-to-veda episode from the last time you attempted referencing to Hindu scriptures.

Bhakti is of course a marg but bhakti is a karma too. Whatever we do, whatever we indulge in is karma. Didn't Swami Vivekanand said that there is not even a moment we are not doing karma? One prays, that is karma; one concentrates on Isvara, that is karma; one sings devotional songs, that is karma; one thinks God, that is karma. Karma can be done without bhakti, without jnana but nothing can be DONE, no marg can be followed without karma. I don't see any problem in understanding this simple idea that karma is involved in all margs. Karma can never be eliminated. We breath, we eat, we laugh, we study, we meditate, we play it is all karma. We can't live for a moment without karma. Sri Vinaire should have no difficulty reading these in Complete Works of Swami Vivekanada.

I said, "A bhakta prays for bhakti and more bhakti." Yes, know any Bhakta, read literature on bhakti and you will find that a bhakta does not ask for moksha but bhakti, a place at the lotus feet of Isvara. The most sought after reward for bhakti is bhakti itself.

I also said, "Or, what a bhakta seeks through bhakti is extremely personal affair between a bhakta and Isvara." Isn't bhakti a one to one relationship of man and God? Isn't this a personal relationship? I would like to know from all how I am wrong in the above understanding.

Sri Vinaire, if my message made you "think that Jnana and Bhakti are totally isolated from each other" then please understand that I didn't intend that suggestion. Right from the beginning I have been suggesting that all the margs are complimentary, all margs interact with each other and we should seek a balance in our approach. I believe that one marg should not be presented as better than others, although it may be so for an individual due to the individual's own inclination.

Sri Ashegan suggested that "Almighty wishes us to be rational and intelligent" and I agree with him because I do think that the almighty wishes us good. Now, who is this almighty, how do you define it are quite another subjects that can be read in scriptures and discussed separately.

I agree with what Sri Vinaire says about natural and spiritual laws. The point I was making to Sri Ashegan was that (1) natural laws cannot apply to spiritual matters (2) Vedas (also) deal with spiritual matters (3) hence it is wrong to say that Vedas (spiritual and eternal subjects) conform to natural laws.

I think that science is taking good care of the "scientific world of today" and there is no need to make Puranas and Vedas 'scientific'. There is so much in our scriptures that can be used to improve science and make science more humane and dharmik. Sri Vinaire's is suggesting something opposite. I totally reject his persistent suggestion to reduce dharma to a technology.

Sri Ashegan,

Please don't be overly concerned about length of post. However, too long posts are certainly difficult to read and respond.

Bhakti is a deed and so is everything else that is DONE. Please see my preceding post.

I don't think I am missing most of what you say, and that applies to your description of Delhi incident as well. I think you are not willing to consider that there are other ways of looking at things, reasonable yet different from yours.

If you are correctly expressing your learning experiences with Purans, you perhaps didn't have a good teacher. I can't imagine how someone can be led to Islam and absorb primarily lies, cheating etc. in Purans. The problem must lie in something personal with you because your experience with Purans are totally contrary to majority Hindus. It is my guess that it has more to do with your later Arya Samajik beliefs.

Sri Ashegan, I think I have taken your messages in good spirit and given the respect these deserve. There are some messages critical to yours but you should apply what you suggest to others regarding Sri Ramesh' and even your own messages. You say that Ramesh' message may be more head-on and abrasive but if read with patience and with objectivity, one can see some valid points therein. Can't you take critical messages in that spirit, in stead of complaining and giving resigned expressions?

Mr. Ashegan,

I understand your points, your request is to practice bakti to the true form of Hinduism and to discard all form of corrupt practices as described in certain puranas and scriptures. That is exactly the point every one of us are trying to write hear. I don't think anyone here is supporting corrupt practices.

Your earlier version of degrading idolism, puranas, rituals and rites are the main topic here. Naming deities with elephant and monkey is the point whereby you dissapointed quite a number of participants. Your present stand with bakti seems different from previous posts. I do agree with you on areas that need corrections in Hinduism.

Now, the question is who is to be blamed for the present mediocre in Hinduism? We can't keep going on by pointing fingers and tell others are wrong with their beliefs. Every Hindu have to do something within his/her means to correct our religion without blaming each other.

Many Hindus today celebrate Hindu festivals for the sake of duty, tradition and culture. The seeking of truth trough such celebrations are declining nowadays. To celebrate such festivals we require some form of authority. Such authorities are coming from the puranas, without which, our wonderful and colourful celebrations will not carry any meaning. The joyous mood prevelent within family members and friends during such celebrations in the house or temple is paramount.

For example the Navaratiri celebration is of little value as far as spiritualism is concern, but for Hindus it is a very big occasion to celebrate with all the rituals and rites. Look into such practices as duty bound then spiritual. So, rather then throwing such practices, it will be better if people are educated in the spritual path of Hinduism combining with celebrations of puranic festivals.

Thandabani

Mr. Thandabani,

Yes, the focus should be on the correction of the corrupt practices in Hinduism and not a wholesale blame on Hinduism.

This applies to other faiths too. We should focus on the corrupt practices in Islam and Christianity without blaming them wholesale.

Comment?

Sri Parahamsahamsa Yogananda, in his 'Autobiography of a Yogi' has written about so many Yogis with extraordinary spiritual powers.
He has written about Lahiri mahashaya who could not be photographed at all.Personally When I was travelling in Himalayas I lived with a great Yogi in Rishikesh who could levitate (1 feet) from the ground.Yogi Babaji always looks like a 16 year old boy!! He can disappear and re-appear at will.
Shri Ashegan, do you think it is possible to explain these Yogic siddhis on the basis of the "scientic" knowledge/ Natural Laws?Science has to learn a lot from our scriptures.
According to science Moon is a satellite.But according to vedic astrology moon is a graha.Rahu,kethu is also a graha which cannot be correlated with modern science!I have an explaination for this Vedic concept of Graha which is a different subject.
Shri Hanuman is a great Yogi,Jnani,Bhakta all in One.Do you think such a Yogi cannot swallow sun?He can swallow entire universe if he likes.
Sri Ramesh,
Veda says:
"Mahalakshmai cha vidmahe vishnupatnee cha dheemahi Tan no Lakshmi prachodaya aath"
describing Mahalakshmi as Vishnu's Patni.
Can you give me a rational explaination of this?

Lord Krishna says to Arjuna:
"Divyam dadaami te chakshuhu pashya me yogamaishwaram" That is - "I will give you a spiritual eye with which you can see my Yoga".

With our Limited "Scientific" eye we should not try to evaluate scriptures.
Modern Science always sees outwards and tries to understand the world by conquering Material nature outside.But our Dharma asks us to see inwards.
That is the Key.
Veda is the Head and Puraanas are the Heart.Both are necessary for a Spiritual saadhana.- Hari Om

This world is called Samsaara.That is Samsarateeti samsaaraha.That which always changes is Samsaara.This world is full of uncertaintees.We dont know when Death exactly takes over.It can happen any moment.At that time No scriptural knowledge comes to our help.Hence Bhaja govindam!Bhaja Govindam!The great Adishankara, votarie of Jnana maarga himself has said this.
a true Jnani will be like Jada Bharata.Totally off from this Material world.Only his body will be here.His entire conciousness in Brahman.
Primary requirement for a Jnana maarga is perfect purity in thought word and deed.Perfect Brahmacharya is a must.In this Kaliyuga it is very hard to find such a perfect soul.Swami Shivananda says "If anybody remains in perfect brahmacharya for 6 months he can definitely see God".
Jnana maarga is relying on ones own efforts.
Bhakti maarga is completely relying on God.In this Kali yuga perfect control of mind is not possible.So the easiest way of engaging the mind is continuous Nama Japa, Bhajan,Keertan etc.,
"Harirharati paapaani dushta chittaiarapi smrutaha" - Shri Hari will take Take away Papa as well as bad samskaaras/intentions by just remembering Him.Names like Rama, Krishna etc., are themselves powerful Mantras with tremondous powers within them.
Vedic Knowledge is not a must for God realisation.Puraanas have said that and people on Jnana maarga need not accept this.
Great Spiritual people like Narada,Valmiki,Vyasa,Meera,Soor das,Tulasi Das,Andal,Sri Ramakrishna have written this in their works.This entire life should be a preparation to face the moment of death.Bhakti spiritualises every act of a Jiva.Bhakti is its own fruit.Only the Knower of this Knows.- Hari Om

sri mukunda, i feel that if one is so spiritually advanced that one can be really truly unattached to the words of the tongue and the action of the hand, then where is the chance of sin seeping in... if you mean that if the prappana commited sin unknowingly and feels repentant, then yes, surely the mercy of god shall descend upon him.. but i don't understand how can someone who is of the base samsarik level where the conscience is not even strong enough to resist wrong-doing can be released from the trailing stock of sinful action...

i am not so learned in the minor philosophy regarding forgiveness of sin.. as far as i know and as far as i have acted in any capacity, it has been fear of god and the divine justice that has kept me away from sin, not to mention the loud voice of my own daena... i am always cautious that each sin i commit will return in equal force to afflict me.. maybe i'm at a lower level of spiritual understanding to be totally non-attached to the fruit of action... but i will consult some arya scholars to find out our stance when it comes to this tricky situation... thanks for providing this angle to the discussion, mukunda... i didn't actually consider it before... i'll definately get back to you on it...

jha, its been my belief that if you back an argument or idea with enough scriptural proof and logical commentary, it is easier to follow and appreciate, hence the usual length... also, school's closed for the year and i've had enough time to make long contributions.. you'll remember that while i was in school, i couldn't post that often or in much detail because of the work load... i feel i must agree with vinaire though, that some of vishal's and your own posts have been of comparable length in the past... but let's not make too much of an issue of it..

as for bhakti, it means devotion.. on its own it isn't karma.. when you think about the almighty with bhakti, that is punya karma.. when you speak or sing his praises with a heart full of bhakti, that is punya karma... when you help the needy or the helpless in your community, feeling bhakti for the almighty all the while, that is punya karma...

as it stands as a descriptive noun 'bhakti' connotes a quality or an approach linked to that quality... it is not in itself karma in any form... bhakti in thought, word or deed is karma... maybe our understanding of the actual term differs... what is bhakti?
if it is 'devotion', on its own it generates no fruit.. when a person feels bhakti or does some something with this in mind, that is karmik action as far as i know...

as regards the issue of the sand-seekers, i am willing to consider other darshanas or viewpoints.. but then i think about what the other viewpoint is -
"the sand is sweet-smelling.. that isn't normal, is it?... it's gotta be supernatural! the hand of god has come to touch us with sweet smells! it couldn't be some co-incidence or accident that this sand smells so good... so i guess that if this paranormal sand smells nice, there must be a murti buried here waiting to pop out (without sculptor or source)! MIRACLE! MIRACLE! call everybody!'

now when i think about the two conclusions.. ie. one that the sand should be actively enquired about and investigated to determine the cause, or jumping to assume a mysterious image is emitted the fragrance and it's a miracle... i feel the former is a bit more reasonable..

(i've addressed my response to you on the puraans on another thread)
jha, i've read all your posts with calmness and objectivity.. i have never in my memory, been rude or snappy at you... the fact that i often enjoy responding to your arguments can be seen in the long replies i make... trust that i would not give advice to others that i do not follow myself.. i'm not that shallow and hypocritical...

sri bani, i have maintained consistently from my very first post that i am not trying to denigrate your practises... in fact, i admitted the links in rituals between my faith and yours and only suggested they be reevaluated to make them safer and have more spiritual/philosophical significance... if you wish i can quote from previous posts, which i hope you've read so i won't have to go back.. my posts are long and its difficult to scan each one now for related articles...

my stand regarding bhakti has never altered... in the vedas, the word for devotion and obedience is 'armaiti' and it's something that is praised as a quality all people should try to inculcate, as well as becoming knowledgeable and helping others... (RV viii 1,6,34,21)
please refer to the following extracts from my previous posts:

" you seem to have the impression that i'm an overwhelmingly rational person who doesn't have a soft spot for the simpler issues of bhakti and prem, which most blind acts are invariably accompanied with...
i have broken down and cried in devotion for god.. prayer was one of the few times in my life i really shed tears.. but out of love for something i couldn't touch or feel or see, but i knew was there carrying me through the darkest,most ugly hours of my life... i'm not as cold-blooded as some think me to be...
no doubt the well-meaning pilgrims and devotees feel very much the same.. that is excellent - anbeh sivam, sivameh anbum - love is god, and god is love...
but doing so and losing all faculties of a reasoning mind and an active intellect is not beneficial..."

"prem and bhakt is essential... without it one is dry, no matter how knowledgeable one is..."

" i didn't lambaste bhakt at all.. go back and see that i've said repeatedly (not only on this thread) that jnan without bhakt and prem is dry, and that all margas are necessary for spiritual growth..."

" bhakt and prem are beautiful ideas.. some of the most moving moments of my life have been because of these..."

"in the same way as the parts of a chariot come together to create movement, so do the various margas of jnan, karma, vivek, bhakt, prem etc. combine to create spiritual movement in the right direction... and just as it takes physical strength to assemble the mighty chariot, so does it take spiritual strength to balance those margs inside oneself..."

no finger has been pointed to accuse another..
i pointed out unsanitised water, that's true... i pointed out indiscrimantly bathing in dirty water and expecting anti-vedic things like sin washing away... i pointed out blind faith and not using the buddhi actively and constructively... i pointed out accepting illogical material in the puraans without thought or discriminating power... those are among the things i have pointed at... 'things', practises, actions... not people... i have pleaded since as far back as i can remember on this and the previous thread for co-operation and the stressing of shared elements to create unity, so we can join together and work toward a common goal...

"i would be happy if we could begin on a clean slate and work towards reconciliation by emphasizing what we share before what makes us different... "

"so that's why i'm stressing diplomacy and mutual exchange to create a positive environment..."

"don't just accept that we reject puranas and bhagvat... ask us why... challenge us... find out the reason... instigate constructive discussion on the subject.. come to a common point or shared aspects... this leads to further unity, and with unity comes strength...
if something in arya samaj confuses you or even angers you, inquire about it.. don't be complacent and and just say - that's the way they do things.. let them be.. i don't care why they believe in such things...
if you feel we are in the wrong let us know... talk to us.. encourage interaction and positive criticism... i can ensure you that we would appreciate that and be aware of your opinions and views.. at the end of the day, both of us are the richer, having learnt something new about a wing of this mansion you believe is your dharma..."

these are a few of the instances where i've called for unity to battle what we can collectively agree are undesirable situations or acts in our dharma... note that there is no blame directed at anyone...

neither have i condemned coming together to celebrate festivals... all i suggest is that following tradition blindly and just accepting that is has enough isn't enough... you must stimulate the spiritual side of the festival as well... consider the philosophy and ideas that crop out around the central theme.. i never said throw out your festivals - i never told you throw out anything... all i asked for was to bring something new in... a critical questioning buddhi.. enquire about the practises.. what do they mean? how can all, the young and old, further this teaching in their daily lives? how can the act be made into a form of rejuvenation every year for the soul and mind as well as the heart? that is what i'm calling for.. giving substance to the ritualistic crust...

i have seen hindu youth losing interest and straying from their dharma because they feel the rituals and traditions are just that, and are innapplicable in daily life... i have tried to instil pride and understanding in their practises, even though i am arya samajist and they are sanatana...
but they were pleased to hear constructive criticism and suggestion, not suspicious and defensive...

Dear Suresh,

What you said is absolutely correct. Is it possible to have pure jnana and bhakti without the blessings and initiation of a physical Guru( who has himself advanced spiritually) even though the Sadguru is lodged in one's own internal spiritual Heart? Is namasmaranam or self-investiagtion itself sufficient for spiritual progress?

Mr. Ashegan,

I agree with you on house cleaning in Hinduism. How and who is responsible? What makes the difference between vedic practices and puranic practices. If I am not mistaken puranic practices derived from vedic practices as well. Your comments please.

As I wrote earlier, the priest community are the one responsible for house cleaning. People are not doing anything for themselves. They are only acting as per the advices of the priests. They are still the controlling body of our rituals, rites and practices. Only Hindus aligned with sects are following the teachings of a Guru. In that sense I do fully support spiritualism through sects then mainstream Hinduism. Hindus tend to receive more spiritual advises through sects then priest. That way, we are able to guide Hindus to better spiritual path.

Mr. Vinay,

Yes, the most important thing for Hindus today is in-house cleaning. To do such, the only way is for people with proper knowledge should take over Hindu institutions to spread the true form of Hinduism. Staying away from Hindu institutions and condeming our own religion without doing anything is not going to do any good for Hindus. I am talking from my own experience.

I have questioned quite a number of practices and frankly speaking certain age old practices has been dropped in our temple. Proper preaching with scriptural backing really works. People accepts such corrections as long as we have the backings from scriptures and answers from Hindu Saints. So, I do believe that if people with scriptural knowledge can take over Hindu institutions and temples to lead, than we are able to produce understanding society in future.

Thandabani

Shree Rama
To answer or attempt to answer your question Muraliji, yes one may have pure jnana or bhakthi without a guru but a person can only reach moksha with a guru. A guru is intergal for moksha.
Ashegan, fear of god or god's justice is not what is needed or desired. It is the love of God. Personally i don't understand how someone can fear the Supreme as described in the vedas. The Supreme in the vedas, brings tears to the eyes of those who can feel his presence, all i can gleam from the scriptures is that God is ever present in everything and is the most loving and compassionate being. All one must do is listen to the songs and abhangs of saint thyagaraja, purandhara daasa, jnanadev, meera, sur das, the azhvars, nayanars, namadev and so on. Let go of the fear of God and let the love of God pour out, and then all of this bhakthi and surrendering will make total sense. Jnana without bhakthi is useless, bhakthi is jnana applied and fostered. What good is knowledge if not applied. A true jnani is a true bhakta. From that jnana and bhakta come parajnana and parabhakti and that lead to paramabhakti.
Shree Rama
-Mukunda

Dear Sri Mukunda,

From your messages I have observed that you are a humble young man possessing jnana as well as bhakti. I would love to hear from your own words the teachings of Bhagavan Ramanuja Acharaya. How is it different from the dwaita and adwaita teachings? Probably you can start a new thread for that.

Fondly

Dear Sri Murali,

What Mukunda said is perfectly true.I am a follower of Ramaanujaacharya too.Let Mukunda initiate a new thread on vishishtaadvaita.
Dear Shri Muraliji according to my Guru, It is not scriptures,It is not even God..its Guru's grace that can definitely bring Moksha.

Dear Sri Suresh and Sri Mukunda,

Thank you for your answer. There are a lot of participants in this forum who follow Vishistaadvaita. My father was leaning towards advaita and my mother toward dvaita, so this will be a good oppurtunity for me to learn what Bhagavan Ramanuja has to say in the new thread meant for that. Are there any other acharayas, sages and saints who follow Bhagavan Ramanuja's path?

sri suresh, our understanding of religion somewhat differs so many of my arguments will appear strange to you... i am not doubting that siddhis are possible... i have seen minor siddhis myself and it has only increased my admiration of ashtang-yog, in which the acquisition of siddhis is nothing more than a sign of progression towards samadhi, and a symbol of the aspirant's mastery of the body and mind...

but then when i think about the theory behind hanumanji swallowing the sun, it leaves me asking whether a true yogi would do something that would cause grief and suffering to the earth by plunging it into darkness... why punish the entire living world, from plants to animals to people just because the sun resembled a ripe fruit in the sky... levitation and walking on water and holding ones breath for a long time, are great siddhis but they do not harm any one... blocking out the sun's rays is detrimental to the earth and causes fear and panic.. would a true yogi want to do such a thing to his fellow beings?

then i must also believe that the demon rahu swallows the sun whenever there's an eclipse, and that because his head is seperated from his body it justs pops out afterwards... i must reject what is proved - that it is the moon or other heavenly body that blocks out the sun's light momentarily... slowly the civilisation we have built as human beings will crumble if we were to all accept such fanciful things as fact...

the story says that hanumanji was a child when this happened.. we all know that yoga is practised and learnt about before upon even gets the first little siddhi, so how can a child have such a world-shaking siddhi as swallowing the centre of the solar system without acquiring yog jnan first?
and if he was so great a yogi that physical creation appeared nothing more than a toy, how could indra deva punish him by striking him down for his action? could a true yogi be so sinful in action that the gods want to punish him? could a true yogi commit a wrongdoing at all? can he be punished be a deva like indra who himself has never swallowed the sun?

as for another story, how would you explain hanumanji's birth? the puraans say he was concieved when veerya was poured into his mother's ear... we know that for reproduction to take place a child is developed in the womb after a sperm cell unites with an egg in the fallopian tubes.. that is natural... how can sperm reach the uterus from the ear? is the sperm not absorbed into the bloodstream if anything? the ears lead to the cavity of the skull and the brain tissue... a child cannot grow and be born there... neither can spermatazoa alone create a child... what is the 'yogic' explanation behind this phenomenon?

a wise man once said that science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind... the christians for a long time only wanted to think the earth was the centre of the universe and the sun moved around it.. only in 1990 did they recant their position...
you say modern science looks outwards and we cannot use science etc. to evaluate the scriptures... if i were to accept that logic then i would have to start believing that the earth is balanced on elephants and a turtle because that's what my puraans teach me...
dharma cannot be related to science, i should say.. whatever unnatural or bizaar things are preserved in the puraans are to be accepted with reverence as holy writ and be left unquestioned in the face of the ever-increasing knowledge of mankind... i will have to forget that the vedas themselves deal with vijyan... that they too suggest we look outward and inside...
let the victory be twofold..

as regards your comment to ramesh, i would appreciate it if you could give me the exact location of that mantra in the vedas as i would like to check it for myself... it sounds like it is from the later texts even though it is written in the vedic meter..

according to the yaugika meaning of lakshmi, it is derived from 'laksh' - to see and to mark... hence god is the one that watches over the whole universe and endows it with distinguishing marks or featues, such as bodies with eyes and ears etc., trees with fruit and flowers, solids with their various colours and consistencies, earth with dust and rock, seeing them all simultaneously.. most beautiful and radiant by his own nature is the almighty god, the source of the veda and the chief of all... lakshmi is vishnu - the all-pervading one...

and he is saraswati (from 'sr' to achieve and know) the one possessed of infinite knowledge of the universe, of words, their meanings and relations, and saraswati is brahma 'the great one'... god almighty is deva and devi.. his names are in all three genders.. that doesn't mean one name is married to another name, and not to others.. lakshmi is brahma, and brahma is dayaalu, and dayaalu is shiva and shiv is agni, and agni is sarvashaktimaan... and the list of epithets praised in the chaturved goes one...

namaste sri mukunda, while i am still researching the concept of sin, i'd like to let you know that fear of god is just one fragment of a kaleidoscope of feelings one has when one reads the veda (why then do we say a person is from a 'god-fearing' family?)..
one feels love, awe, respect, admiration, tearful devotion and a healthy dose of fear.. as the taittiriya upanishad sings in the eighth anuvaka of the brahmanandavalli, describing the all-pervasive and beneficial nature of the fear of god :

bhiishaasmaadvaatah pavate, bhishodeti suuryah
bhiishaasmaasagnichendrashcha, mrityurdhaavati panchama iti

'from fear if god does the wind blow, from fear of god does the sun rise,
from fear of god does fire burn and the senses feel, and from fear of god does death run afar'

i don't think having a little fear of the almighty is a bad thing... it does not make me love, or cherish his love, any less.. perhaps my devotion for him has even grown because of it...

sri bani, puranic rites have many sources, not only the ved.. regional practises, tribal beliefs etc. have contributed to its developement... the inclusive nature of hindu dharma is more in puranic or popular religion than in the vedic...

to 'clean up' undesirable practises will take massive campaigns and efforts... arya samaj has been trying to accomplish it for a hundred years, and we've done okay so far, but the work is never really finished.. and real reform will begin when hindus can unite (for eg. on the vhp) for a common cause and work towards it...

Dear Sri Ashegan,

I can cover the Sun by just holding my hand against it.That does'nt mean that my hand is bigger than the sun.
As Mukunda said, You have to understand our scriptures in their proper context.I have been telling from beginning that Puranas are poetic and symbolic.
You have to understand that the Jiva carries his samskaaras, good and bad ,from one birth to another.so a child can definitely exhibit sidhdhi or spiritual maturity based on its achievements in the previous Janmas.
The vedic mantra which I have quoted is in srisooktam.
You did not answer my earlier question that Great mahatmas like soordas,Tulasidas,Meera,Andal,Purandara das who relied heavily on Puranas,Ramayana and Mahabharata are Ajnanis? - Harihi Om

sureshji, i too have maintained that the puraans are written in poetic form but many are blatantly unnatural and illogical... amidst the symbolism are many things which cannot be justified on a philosophical or spiritual level..

(please let me know the vedsamhita, mandal, sukt, and mantra of the srisooktam...)

arya samajists believe it is true knowledge which attains salvation, not devotion and self-surrender which no doubt are part of the process... only with wisdom can we feel the infinite love of the almighty... there have been mahatmas in every religion in every marga in every imaginable way... but without the vidya and the medha i don't believe salvation is possible... that is my belief.. it need not be accepted... i think on this point it would be safest to agree to disagree...

Ashegan, I agree.

Devotion and self-surrender is just the process. The goal is attainment of knowledge that would set one free.

Dear Ashegan,
My question is not answered.I will make it simple.
Do you consider Sri Tulasidas as a Ajnani?- Harihi Om.

Mr. Ashegan & Mr. Vinay,

How do you explain true knowledge?

What are the path for true knowledge?

Please elaborate indept about true knowledge and path for true knowledge?

What make you think that true knowledge is not attainable through bakti and total surrender to God?

Thandabani

Mr. Thandabani,

The purpose of devotion and self-surrender in Bhakti is to obtain true knowledge.

In Bhakti, knowledge is the goal. Devotion and self-surrender is just the process of Bhakti.

Devotion and self-surrender is not the goal by itself.

sri tulsidas, to my knowledge, was a pauranik sanatana who worshipped sri raam and translated the sanskruti ramayana into hindi, adding and subtrating from the original as he wished.. i do not consider him a jnani or a mahatma if that's what you are getting at..

to sing devotionals and to feel great devotion is a good thing, but it is true knowledge and wisdom that open the gates of moksha... bhakti is to help you on your way.. it is an initial step... if it was bhakti alone that caused one to attain salvation, many of the world's people would be there right now... i can feel devoted to anything, be it good or bad, and dedicate myself completely to it, surrendering all i have to it... with jnan and vivek, that is plain ignorance...if devotion and self-surrender was all that we need to reach moksha where is the need for the god's instructions in the veda?

the vedas pray constantly 'yaam medhaam devaganah piraraschopaasate tayaa maamadya medhayaagne medhaavinam kuru svaha' - give us true knowledge, bless us with superior understanding, bless us with medha...
medhaam me varuno dadhaatu... god, i pray for wisdom..
sanim medhaamayaashisham svaahaa... i beg from you, my lord, grant me wisom, grant me true knowledge..
would all these prayers be in vain? should the verses rather be asking for more bhakti than medha if that's what it takes to reach the tritiiye dhaaman?

true knowledge is not only from books and studying, it is from inside.. it is from living a life dedicating to yoga (righteous action), following the yamas and niyamas, living a life full of goodness and rta... it is introspection, looking inside oneself when the mind is still... it is being conscious of god and one's actions at all times... true knowledge is the final beatitude of human life... our rishis had it... so too can we.. and so too can all men... it takes lifetimes to develope in purity of the soul to attain true knowledge.. what makes us think it is so easy to reach salvation, when those that did, like the rishis of the past found it such a long and arduous journey, that required a firm spirit and consistent effort?

surrendering to god, singing kirtans and bhajans in the mandir, 'taking his name' as you say, is all part of increasing awareness of god in our lives.. it should put us in the right disposition to seek knowledge and improve ourselves... to study the vedas and the shastras is the help we have in the world in the quest for true knowledge...

if i had it and could describe it to you, then i should be a mahatma or a rishi right now... but i'm not.. i'm on the path of searching.. it is not so easy that you can chant god's glories and totally submit to his will and there you are, on the gates of moksha... the spiritual journey is longer than that... bhakt, jnan and karma are the bricks that pave the road to achieving true knowledge...

(ps: please let me know the co-ordinates for sri suktam... and my points regarding why a true yogi would block out light fom the world, causing pain, panic and suffering where not answered, {when you block out the sun with your hand you are depriving yourself of light, when you swallow the sun you are harming others and throwing the world into chaos} as well as the questions as to how such a great one who rivals the gods in power can be struck down with the vajra for this crime)

It is true that the Jnanis are one step above the Bhaktas but the difference is only marginal, i.e, very slim. A comparison would be Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi, Parmahamsa Ramakrishna among the many Jnanis and Bhakta Meera, Swami Purandara Das among the many Bhaktas. This is my understanding and I do not wish to offend my dear bhakta friends in this forum like Sri Suresh and others. In case I did please forgive me.

Saint Tyagaraja has sung "Yendaro Mahanubhavulu andariki Vandanamu" - There are so many Great Realised souls and I bow down to all of them.

This is the real sign of a Jnani or a Realised one.Vedas declare that there is only one sath(God/Brahman) and there are different paths to realise Him.In the Gita Bhagavan describes that all these different paths as Jnana Yoga,Bhakti Yoga,Karma Yoga,Dhyana Yoga etc., and All these paths surely lead to that Ultimate Realisation.Great Acharyas like Swami Vivekananda,Ari Aribindo etc., have acknowledge this.Only Apakva Jnanis believe that their own path is perfect and All other paths are inferior.
As HariHaran once pointed out We Hindus should stop this infighting to establish the supremacy of one's path of sadhana.
A True Hindu with real Vedic spirit truely acknowledges that all these paths are valid.
Swami Vivekananda has said that Vedic Truths are like etrnal Laws.They will automatically be revealed when the Sadhaka is mature enough in his sadhana.Just by reading or thinking that I am Brahman I cannot become one.Spiritual realisation cannot be achieved by mere scriptural knowledge or arguments.It is to be practiced.There is a lot to be learnt from the lifes of great souls like Sri Tulasidas,Meera,Purandara Das etc etc.,
In the BhagavadGita Sri Krishna says:
Bahoonan janmanam ante Jnavan mam prapadyate.
Vasudevah sarvamiti sa mahatma sudurlabhaha.
-"After many Births and deaths, He who is actually in Knowledge will surrender unto me thinking that Vasudeva or Supreme God is Everything and such a person is Mahatma very rare to find." - Hari Om

sri suresh, if you go through my previous posts, you will see that i'm not degrading bhakti or putting any marg above another one.. all i'm saying is that the margas are complementary to one another.. they work together to create spiritual motion... even if you study the lives of the great souls of the past, you will find they had achieved a balance inside themselves...

and not once have i assumed the title of a 'jnani' either... it is true that i value each and every one of the three margas equally, but that doesn't make me bigoted enough to claim one is superior... i said that the culmination of bhakti, karma and jnan is the acquisition of true knowledge.. and that is the heighest realisation a soul can achieve.. the margas are the steps we take to reach it..

take for example, sri tulsidas... he felt intense devotion for sri raam, right? and he had to study the sanskrit ramayan and the philosophy of it before writing the raam charit manas, which not doubt meant alot of dhyan as well - that is jnana at work... and when he travelled as an altruistic teacher no doubt, he performed karma yoga among the people around him...
hence we must all strive for balance in our lives... each marga has something good to teach us, if we follow it with dedication... and the end result is the never-ending light of true knowledge...

If you are strong take up the Vedanta philosophy and be independent. If you cannot do that, worship God; if not, worship some image. If you lack strength even to do that, do some good works without the idea of gain. Offer everything you have unto the service of the Lord. Fight on! "Leaves and water and one flower - whosoever lays anything on my altar, I receive it with equal delights." [Gita, IX. 26]. If you cannot do anything, not a single good work, then take refuge [in the Lord]. "The Lord resides within the heart of the being, making them turn upon His wheel. Do thou with all thy soul and heart take refuge in Him. [Gita, XVIII. 61-62]. …

- Lord Krishna (as expounded by Swami Vivekanand)


I declare that I take up the Vedanta philosophy and that I shall be independent. I shall use this knowledge to help others as much as possible.

sri suresh...

"(ps: please let me know the co-ordinates for sri suktam... and my points regarding why a true yogi would block out light fom the world, causing pain, panic and suffering where not answered, {when you block out the sun with your hand you are depriving yourself of light, when you swallow the sun you are harming others and throwing the world into chaos} as well as the questions as to how such a great one who rivals the gods in power can be struck down with the vajra for this crime)" - dec. 23

Sri Ashegan,

I appreciate your conclusion of looking at all the paths of Sadhana - Bhakti,Karma,Jnana etc., equally.That is the real spirit of Veda.

Your earlier posts like
"sri tulsidas, to my knowledge, was a pauranik sanatana who worshipped sri raam and translated the sanskruti ramayana into hindi, adding and subtrating from the original as he wished.. i do not consider him a jnani or a mahatma if that's what you are getting at.." did not depict that.

I really appreciate your logical conclusion.

Sri Suktam is one among the pancha suktams which are found in Rig Veda and commonly chanted.I will give you the exact location in a day or two.

As for as Sri Hanuman's childhood story...Looks like you are seeing this story too literally.Puranic stories are too poetic and symbolic and you should only take the poetic aspect of it..Not literal...
The actual story is that Sri Hanuman jumped up thinking Sun as an apple..and he had no intention of swallowing sun and causing miseries and pain..-HariOm