It is beyond the understanding of common masses
to analyse the vedas,the upanishads,the brahmanas
the aranyakas and so on so forth.
The basic idea ,although,of all these sacred and
excellent volumes is mysticism&realisation of the "SELF", a person among the masses finds it really difficult to understand them.
Bhakti marg or the path of total devotion to the
God, has in essence simplified the rituals of our
ancient religious books and paved a way to that common goal of being in unison with the ALMIGHTY.


All the great saints of India, singularally preached this ideology, and I think, a broader discussion pertaining to this subject should be on the board in the interest of commoners like me.

Dr Ninad: Devotion is the only means of self realization. Devotion to God unlocks the door to the heart and God enters to reestablish the loving relationship we have had with Him since time immemorial. This relationship between the love and the beloved is the highest ecstasy. This relationship rises above the dry, speculative platform of the intellect (jnana). The intellect is on the material platform of rationalization and logic, it can never understand anything transcendental. Devotion reunites the soul to its source. The sweetness and mellowness of this relationship defeats all other relationships. Devotion creates a very intimate relationship between the creator and the created that allows God to reveal Himself in the atmosphere of love. It is the natural inclination of the soul to seek the exact relationship it was conceived in. In order to experience love, there has to be a person to extend this love to. There has to be an exchange of feelings between the lover and the beloved. The lover must know what the beloved looks like, how the beloved behaves, the likes and dislikes and everything that can be known about the object of their love. Devotion is the method to actualize this relationship. Every religious scripture advices that devotion is the only way to know God. Intellect should be used only as a tool to point one in the direction of God.

Though I am a novice at Vedic philosophy, it has been my conclusion that the means of achieving liberation of the soul is not through jnanam or bhakti alone, but through self-realization. The only way to detach one's self from the Earth and reincarnation (the goal of any religious seeker) is to deep down realize that they are driven by the soul which exists beyond the material world and is brahman.

The realization itself can come from jnanam, karma, or through bhakti (a fourth one?) The path of Bhakti marg is so frequently advocated and taught because it involves, just as you put it, "the highest ecstacy." Bhakti is also a simple practice that does not require renunciation or high thinking, and is extremely pure. While other methods certainly do have their strong points too.

Spayne,
Like Dr Ninad am a commoner too. I agree with most of what you say but you are mistaken in using the word 'only' in 'Devotion is the only means of self-realization.' If this were so our shastras would not be such a vast treasure house of divine knowledge nor, in every age, would we be blessed with so many gurus and self-realized souls who point to the many ways to eternal truth.

When there is causeless cessation in the intellect's endless activity,then in that instant there is a step towards understanding the self i.e being free of it. There are other ways or a mixture of them.

"There are other ways or a mixture of them."

All the time I hear talk about the different paths of yoga which lead to moksha, but is it also possible to combine paths? To go by a mixture of both?

I would like to say that my path is one of devotion and knowledge.

Jiten: Bhagavad Gita 8.28..."A person who accepts the path of devotional service is not bereft of the results derived from studying the Vedas, performing austere sacrifices, giving charity or pursuing philosophical and fruitive activities. Simply by performing devotional service, he attains all these, and at the end reaches the supreme eternal abode." Bhagavad Gita 18.55..."One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." These statements by God Himself must be accepted as truth. If you are refering to awarness of the Paramata or Supersoul as the all and all, it is not. Meditation easily brings you to the realization that you are not this body. But is that the supreme goal, no. Self realization means returning yourself to your original consciousness. This original consciousness is that of a lover of God. So the ultimate goal of any spiritual endeavor is to reestablish your original relationship with God. You cannot rid yourself of your intellect's endless activity. You can only purify it. That purification is only activated with it is dovetailed in the function of devotional service to God. All other methods are only troublesome. Devotional service is easily performed and guaranteed to end in success.

Suzy, It is true that Devotion does lead to self realization. But isolating it to be the ONLY way for realization would be a folly.

The Geetha Indeed says Bhakthi is enough (the best sloka to depict it would be 11:54) But ppl of different mindsets would adopt different paths.

I for one love Gnana when I find my mind Clear. The beauty of revelling in the SELF (believe me, I cant describe how it feels, but there is Nothing like it.)

I LOVED the stage in life when I was a devotee. My could not eat or sleep. My tearglands were overworked by the "mere" thought of the Lord (I miss those days & sometimes pine for it even now.) I remember a time when I forgot "breathing" (as I was told) when I was thinking of Her :)

Karma yoga - is for everyone. Gnani or Bhakthimaan - Duty cannot be evaded & attachment to duty cannot arise.

Answering Dr.Ninad's question, "Yes, Veda & upanishads are for the classes & does require a basic level of understanding." But the CONTENTS of vedas & upanishads are practisable & applicable even to the masses (the interpretation is all that counts.)

Dnyan,Karma,Bhakti and Yoga are the different paths leading to that common Goal of realisation of the Brahma and understanding it's true nature.
No particular path therefore, can be labelled as the exclusive one.
I think,what Suzy really meant by saying"the only way"was in the context of a Grihastha.So burdened a common man is, by the very nature of day to day living, that Bhakti alone is seemingly a simpler and appealing path to him.
Dharma,Artha,Kama and Moksha are the four duties
assigned to a Grihastha by the Shastras.But so engulfed and entangled he gets in the first three
that the fourth and the important one tends to be overlooked inadvertently.In circumstancesin which he finds himself, day in and day out,Bhakti alone can render him the required Strength-The Shakti.
An excellent Drishtant-an example by way of a story goes thus:
Once when conceit devoured the Divine sage Narad
he thought he was the Greatest devotee of Shri Vishnu.Realising this,Vishnu asked him to go to a
particular Bhakta and cultivate his acquaintance.
What Narada found was a simple farmer,toiling in the farm throughout the day and reciting the name of Hari once in the morning and once in the evening.
Seeing him,Narad thought ,"How can this rustic be
called a Lover and devotee of God.?I see no signs
of true devotee in him."He told Shri Vishnu what he thought about the farmer.
The Lord then asked him to take a cup of oil,go around the place for a while and come back without spilling a single drop of oil.
After his return,Shri Vishnu asked him,"Well, how often did you remember me in your walk?"
"Not even once"was the prompt reply from Narad.
Shri Vishnu smiled and said,"A cup of oil forced you to forget me completely,but look at that rustic,who,despite carrying the heavy burden of worldly duties remembers me atleast twice every day.He is indeed my Bhakta and I adore him."

Nutan Varshabhinandan OM-TAT-SAT

Pundit: Why are you not practicing Gnana now? If this path was creating the ecstasy you speak of, why did you give it up?

The parable of the cup of oil is one of my favorites Sri Ninad, thank you for recalling it :) It always has the effect of putting a smile on my face.

On the subject of the importance of bhakti, there is a passage in the Bhagavad Gita that shows the practical necessity of bhakti in our lives. Though my copy of the Bhagavad Gita rests at my fathers house at the moment, the passage goes somewhat as such:

"The wise man sees God in the gentle brahman, the elephant, the dog and the dog eater." (Please excuse any glaring mistranslations)

In terms of bhakti, this passage would means that a wise man should also show unconditional love to all mankind and animals. To me this is represents perfect human nature; to be able to love all things as the manifestation of Brahman.

One a seperate note, I have never in my studies found the need for an individual to select one path of yoga to abide by. I find it much more rewarding to pursue bhakti yoga, but to also take out personnal time to reflect as a jnana yogi. Karma yoga is a method I try to imploy whenever possible, but I do not feel this takes away from my practice of bhakti or jnani. I feel it is important to cultivate both pure devotion and transcendental knowledge.

Suzy,
Greetings of the new century to all in this satsang.
Once again you are right to emphasise the devotional path to moksha. But look at the following actual scenario:

Am either a member of or attend meetings at such apparently diverse spiritual places as Bodh-Ambedkar, Jain, Sanatani, Arya Samaj, Gurudwara, Iskon, Swaminarayan, Brahama Kumaris, Sri Murugun, Guru Narayan and Bhagwan Valmik. I once attended in the UK both talks of a visiting scholar from India who stated that Bhagwad Gita is a very small part of the Mahabharat saga, the whole is an extraordinary account of the major role the women played in those ancient times.

Sometimes the language medium used at these places may defeat me, no big deal, otherwise it is just like home. Whatever path or mixture of paths I may be on, most of the devotees at these places have different paths. Who am I or anybody else to say which path is the correct one? Gita says there are other paths.

The beauty, the ultimate simplicity and the depth of our dharma is such that once the essence of it is understood one is free of all labels and explanations. One can customise it to fit one's own (shrinking) ego, till both the tailor-fit and ego vanish. Naturally, there is no fit for an outsize ego.

Footnote: The reason for going to so many madirs is I like to be in a satsang and listen to singing, perhaps a talk. I did once walkout when the speaker had superficial knowledge.
From what I have read of your writings I would be very happy to sit and listen to you.

"The beauty, the ultimate simplicity and the depth of our dharma is such that once the essence of it is understood one is free of all labels and explanations."

Quite true. Names and labels, past their necessity, are only good for making confusion and divisions. When I have reflected on it, I found that no two people follow the same path to Self-Realization. I feel quite certain every devotee thinks of God, practices devotion and visualizes God differently from the next.

There is a part of me that has tremendous love for Hari Krishna, because it was through the help his glorious teachings that I was able to overcome an extremely difficult period of life. Everyday becomes better than the next since I've become a Hindu, and I owe it completely to the Bhagavad Gita- my first step into the religion.

Dear Shri Andrew & Jiten,
A dedicated and devotional attempt to establish a true and natural relationship with the God is Bhakti.This relationship, emerges from pure love, dwells in love and merges in love.
Sa tu Asmin Parampremrupa: Naradbhaktisutra 2

But no materialistic gains can be attained by this Bhakti.So long as one longs for materialistic
fruits,this pure love can't be initiated in his heart.
Sa na kamayana Nirodhrupatwat(Narad bh.sutra7)

Bhakti is superior to Dnyan,Karma and Yoga.
Sa tu karmadnyanyogebhyaha api adhiktara 65
Because, it is, in it's ownself,the ultimate effect while others yearn to attain the supreme goal. Swayamphalrupata Iti Brahmakumaraha 30

Bhagawad Gita 12/1-7 does explain it further.

A Great Sage like Maharashi Narad,has the authority to unequivocally say so.Common mortals like me,can only at the best,put it forth as a reference.
It is beyond doubt that a combination of the four paths,either in perfection or as an attempt,are
an ideal requirement.An analogy would be a bird ,
flying(Karma)towards his destination ,with the help of his two flaps(Dnyan and Bhakti)and the tail(Yoga),giving him direction and stability respectively.
The Logo of Shri Ramkrishna Mission depicts the same.The rising Sun is Dnyan,the waves in the sea represent Karma,the Lotus is Bhakti,the serpent is kundalini or Yoga and in the centre is the Hansa-the Supreme God,the final attainment.But interestingly enough, Shri Ramkrishna Paramhans was himself a Great Devotee of Kalimata and advocated Bhakti Marg incessantly.
When i ask myself,with an open heart,as to whether i can practice everything together, the answer is always in the Negation.And then,i,like so many earthly figures around me,resort to that not so easy but most natural,appealing,lovable path of BHAKTI.
Evam sarveshu bhuteshu Bhakti Avyabhicharini
Kartavaya Panditaii dnyatwa sarvabhutmayam Harim

Behold that Supreme lord in everyone and direct your devotion to THAT Lord Supreme.
With whatever little knowledge and means are at my disposal,with whatever little effort i can put in and with whatever way i can afford,i,like so so
many others like me follow the path of Bhakti.
It is futile debating over what is better and what is not.if Suzy says"the only way" one should try to realise what made her say so.There is a definite substance in her statement.
i am reminded of a subhashit pertainig to Queries and answers.The answer ,sometimes,is in the query but we are not able to decipher it.

SImantinishu ka shanTA, RAja ko-bhud_gunottaMA
VIdvadabhihi ka sada vanDYA ,
tatraivaktam na budhyate.

Who is the most composed among women?
Who was the most "gunottam"king?
What is always respectable to the learned?
The answer can be obtained by joining the first and last letters of each quarter of the verse.
SITA,RAMA and VIDYA


OM-TAT-SAT

Sri Ramakrishna Paramhamsa worshipped KALI. The current period is called KALIYUGA (the age of Kali). Here is my understanding of KALI worship.

Kali embodies the concept of COMPLETE DESTRUCTION. Here 'complete destruction' DOES NOT mean 'destruction by force' because force can never destroy something completely. Force can only alter the form of something. So, what is the meaning of 'COMPLETE DESTRUCTION'?

Remember the story of a rope lying on the road which appeared as a snake in the dark. But when light was shown on it, the "illusion of snake" was completely destroyed. So, this is what we mean by complete destruction. KALI symbolizes the 'complete destruction of illusion.'

This universe of matter, energy, space, and time appears so solid that it overpowers our thinking. We are thoroughly convinced that this universe cannot be the product of our postulates (created thoughts). Well, this is the most masterful illusion that there can be.

It is in this Kaliyuga that we would be able to see scientifically that however solid this universe may appear, it is still the product of our thoughts. And as we start coming to that realization, the universe will start reducing itself to the thoughts that created it. And, as we recognize those thoughts as our own considerations, all we would be left with then would be just those considerations - and no universe.

COMPLETE DESTRUCTION!

Dear Vinaire,
We are in the midst of a discussion
on Bhakti Marg.The reference of Shri ramkrishna Paramhansa and his Bhakti towards Kalimata was in the context of this discussion.
Please don't your exhibit your casual approach and ignorance by postings which are irrelevent to a particular subject and please don't make an attempt to divert our attention to something which doesn't fit in here.
After reading Shri. Jiten's post,i,for a moment wasn't sure of your intentions but now i am fully convinced.
Confusious once said"one who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool-Ignore him."
i am neither a great scholar like you nor good at constructing formulas,equations and hypothesis.i am a common man with a common understanding of dedication to the God Almighty and the cause of medical profession.
For you my Prayers go to Him with all modesty
--Tamaso ma Jyotirgamay--
Lead us from darkness to Light.


OM-TAT-SAT

I am sorry to have upset your concentration, Dr. Ninad. Please continue with your discussion.

OM-TAT-SAT

Sri Ninad and Suzy,

Perhaps we can look at bhakti not as the "only way" but as the "only sensible way"?

Pure bhakti (pure communion with Paratman) is the goal that we all seek no matter what other path we take. It is common sense to always look ahead towards the desired goal when performing any task. When I ran track on my high school team I was always told by my coach to focus my eyes on the finishing line and use my legs to get me there. I guess bhakti, to me, is like keeping my eyes focused; while dharma and yoga propell me forward.

Also, if anyone may help me, I am trying to find the proper term to describe the immediate feeling of bliss associated with bhakti. It is on the tip of my tongue, but I can't seem to form it.

Om hari,
Andrew

Suzy Wrote:
>Pundit: Why are you not practicing Gnana now?
>If this path was creating the ecstasy you speak of, why did you give it up?

One cannot "give up" gnana. Knowledge once aquired cannot be forsaken (even if you want to).. Bhakthi without knowledge (or knowledge without devotion) are tasteless.

I cant explain what gnana is, but I can say that YOU BE that you ALREADY ARE. Gnana takes no effort on one's part & it is very easy. All you do is be yourSelf... But to get to that part, it takes a lot of practice.

In the state of "Gnana", you give up the thought of Body. You get to a point when you dissociate from the "mind" & then, Lo behold, you ARE THERE. (To tell the truth, this is not a daily experience to me. I just had it about 4-5 times.)

In effect, even one who constantly practises gnana will resort to "bhakthi" once in a while to revel in it's own sake..

Bhakthi without knowledge (or knowledge without devotion) are tasteless.
__________________________________________________
Mr.Sundara Rajan,You may permit me to gently differ from you.(Bhakthi Yogam has been very elaborately discussed in this Message Board a few months back under threads I & II-Now many members are new-So I am repeating what I have already said)"Bhakthi" without even an iota of Knowledge is very Very "Tasteful"-provided if a Proper Guru can initiates the incumbent who lacks knowledge. There was a great High-way robber-he was looting and inflicting injuries on travellers.Saptha Rishi came in his way.Every body know the story-so without going into details-Saptha Rishi asked the Robber what he knew by way of prayers-reply was NOTHING."Atleast do you know the name of any tree around you?"-"Yes -that tree name is MARA"--O.K.Go on recite "MARA" till you think you can".The totally illiterate robber was as adament in Sraddha and Bhakthi in reciting "MARA"as in his earlier profession."MA"--"RA"--Sa--RAMA--Ma=for me---RA=the betower of all best things in life--Sa-He is ---Rama.The robber became Maharishi Valmiki,the composer of One of the Best Epics the world has ever produced.I don't say "Gjnaana " is not required.If it is there "well and Good".Even if it is not there "Ananya Bhakthi"(sri.Naradha Bhakthi Sutram) will take a person to God(Saayujyam)

How very true that Rathnakara the highway robber was transformed into a Seer by the mere utterance of Rama nama.

What the highway robber had was not bhakthi but Shraddha (Immense & intense Faith.) This faith was born of virakthi & vairaagya (detachment towards his family & a realization that the present is ephimeral.) This aversion towards his present way of life led to "viveka".

The utterance of MARA leading him to the same state as other muneeswaras experience shows that Immovable faith does lead to realization.

I agree that Devotion is a nectar in itself. But I do not know how to draw a line between Devotion & Knowledge.

How can I love someone I dont know ? and How can I know someone I dont love ?

Jnani: For me bhakti is the only way because it encompasses all the other ways. Let me share my devotional path with you.

I spend part of my earnings to purchase food, flowers and incense for Krsna. I maintain my home with the rest with the thought of giving Krsna a suitable residence. (Karma Yoga...dedicating the fruits of one's labor to Krsna)

When I chant Krsna's name, I think about Him constantly. (Dhyana..Meditation)

I spend time reading and studying the Vedic Literatures to learn about Krsna and His creations. (Jnana Yoga...Philosophical search for the truth.

The time and energy I expend doing these activities I consider my (Yajna...Sacrifice.)

In the highest state of samadhi I felt no ecstasy. There were feelings of expansiveness, freedom, awareness and awesomeness. But it was bereft of ecstasy. When the same meditation was done, with Krsna as the object of meditation, unbelievable ecstasies arose which caused my heart to melt.

Hence, my statement that bhakti is 'very simple, easily performed and contains the highest ecstasy.'

Jnani: For me bhakti is the only way because it encompasses all the other ways. Let me share my devotional path with you.

I spend part of my earnings to purchase food, flowers and incense for Krsna. I maintain my home with the rest with the thought of giving Krsna a suitable residence. (Karma Yoga...dedicating the fruits of one's labor to Krsna)

When I chant Krsna's name, I think about Him constantly. (Dhyana..Meditation)

I spend time reading and studying the Vedic Literatures to learn about Krsna and His creations. (Jnana Yoga...Philosophical search for the truth.

The time and energy I expend doing these activities I consider my (Yajna...Sacrifice.)

In the highest state of samadhi I felt no ecstasy. There were feelings of expansiveness, freedom, awareness and awesomeness. But it was bereft of ecstasy. When the same meditation was done, with Krsna as the object of meditation, unbelievable ecstasies arose which caused my heart to melt.

Hence, my statement that bhakti is 'very simple, easily performed and contains the highest ecstasy.'

Dear Suzy,

From what you have said, it seems to me that you do engage in activities other than bhakta yoga alone, but that you make bhakta yoga the motivation behind these other activities. There is certainly a lot of things you do in life that aren't prescribed acts to God-realization, such as your job, but your actions are given a beautiful meaning to them by acting with devotion. I think that was more or less the idea in my last post.

The nickname I chose was meant to symbolize my quest for knowledge on this forum. I do rely heavily on viveka (sp?) in my spiritual growth, but I do so because it brings me closer to understanding God and all the more reasons to show my devotion. In turn, my devotion strengthens my resolve to gain knowledge. I think that any path will lead to bhakta, which may be the highest/purest form. However, I believe that jnana is necessary; just as bhakta cannot take the place of food, there is still a need for us to take in what is not absolutely perfect.

Thank you for sharing- as always.

I'm afraid that I must inquire as to whether or not you are a member of ISKCON? You show all the characteristics of one who has studied Srila Prabhapuda.

Om hari,
Andrew

Dear Jnyani,
The eventuality of Devotion is Eternal Bliss.
-A Bliss which can't be expressed in words unless
it is experienced-.At this stage ,i can only presume it to be 'Paramanand or Supreme Joy',since
i have never experienced it.Possibly, i may experience it in future ,or may be never in this birth.i am not aware.
Great Saints, who have followed this path of pure and undemanding Love towards God and have reached the ultimate goal,have experienced a complete Unison with that Almighty.It is an ectacy ,where the very existence of Bhakt,Bhakti and Bhagwan(The Devotee,Devotion and the Devoted)as individual and seperate entities, ends.All the Three merge in each other to form one single and
indissoluble Entity.

Bhaktya mambhijanati yavanyaschasmi tatwatah
Tato mam tatvato dnyantwa vishate tadanantaram
Bhagawad Gita 18-55
ie. By means of Devotion,one acquires the
philosophical knowledge of who'I'the Parameshwar
am, and how much I am; and after this knowledge has been acquired(not before)the Devotee comes to be merged in Me.
An objection is sometimes raised to the effect
that if the path of Devotion starts with duality how will a devotee ultimately realise the Non-Dualistic knowledge.So far as the objection is hinted towards"the end of Devotion" there is nothing wrong in it.Since the Devotee and the Devoted are one,the act of Devotion will naturally end at this stage.
But, if the objection means that the path of devotion which is based on Duality initially can never lead to Non-Dualistic knowledge,then it will be proved to be groundless not only by logic but also by the experiences of well known Devoteees of the Blessed Lord.
The actual experiences of Saints are more convincing in this regard and i would quote Saint Tukaram,a great Devotee of Pandurang(Hari),who had acquired the knowledge of the Absolute self not by reading ANY of the treatises but by actual experience. He says:
1. As every part of Jagerry is sweet,
So has God come to be everywhere.
Now whom shall I worship,
God is inside and outside me.
The film on the water is not seperate from water,Just as gold gets a name by being made into
an ornament.
Tuka says,so I am. Tukaram Gatha-3627

2.I(Tuka)am more minute than the minutest atom
I am as big as firmament,
I have annihilated by swallowing that body
Which is only a form of Cosmic illusion.
I have gone beyond the Trinity,
A light has been lighted in this body.
Tuka says:"Now I survive only for philanthropy."
Tukaram Gatha-3587

OM-TAT-SAT

(1)Bhagavan sri.Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita:- "Yo Yo Yaam Yaam Tanum BHAKTHAHA-Zraddhaya Architum Icchathi--Thasya Thasya Achalaam Zraddhaam Taam Eva Vidhdhaamyaham"-So Tanum Bhakthaha= any BHAKTHA worshipping an Idol or a symbol with Zraddha-Lord Krishna says he encourages that "Mountain like Zraddha".Bhakthi is Not ONE trait.It is an admixture(YOGAM)of a few traits-the major component(>80%) is Zraddha.Both are so inseparable.In Vishnu Sahasranaamam Phalasruthi it is said "Zraddha Bhakthi Saman Vidhaha." Without Gjaanam Bhakthi can be there-without Bhakthi Gjnaam can be there.But without Zraddha Bhakthi Can NOT be there.If one carefully analyse "Zraddha Traya Vibhaga Yogam" Of Bhagavad Gita-Saatveeka Zraddha is Bhakthi Only.(late) sri Rajagopalaachari(Rajaji) says "If Gjnaana does not get transformed into Bhakthi-such knowledge is an useless tinsel".(2)Another Great Bhaktha who had totally no Knowledge of the Scriptures(Shastra Sanskaaram) was sri.Kannappa Nayanaar(a hunter)-another one is Sri.Gorakumber(a potter).Between "knowing(Parischayam)"- and "Knowledge(Gjaanam)" there is a lot of difference.we will discuss-----

Jnani: I have never been a member of ISKCON. I have studied the Vedic Literatures translated by A. C. Bhaktivedanta extensively. Were it not for this man, what would the western world know about God? As I relish these posts by knowledgeable members of the Hindu culture, I wish I were privy to the extensive spiritual literatures they enjoy.

I have studied the Vedic Literatures translated by A. C. Bhaktivedanta extensively. Were it not for this man, what would the western world know
about God?
__________________________________________________
It is absolutely true. sri.la-sri.Bhakthivedhaata Prabhupaadha was a very great Scholar in Vedas/Srimath Bhaagavatham/Bhagavad Gita.He really created ripples in the minds of Western Theologists and made them to sit and ask "What is sri.Krishna Conscience?".Though I have differences of opinion of his critisicm of Advaitha Vedhaantha and of Acharya Sankara's works and also on "Saivism"-typical of "Vaishnava" Schools of Thought(especially that of sri.Krishna Chaitanya),his contributions are Great.I know a few Non-IsKCON sri.Krishna devotees who have very high appreciation for sri.Bhakthi Vedhanta's erudition and Scholarliness.His treatment of the subject is very simple,yet very scholarly.

I have to agree with Suzy that ISKCON has contributes significantly to the western awareness of Eastern Philosohy.

I would say that Vivekananda (armed with advaitha philosophy) was the first one to be successful in winning the hearts of intellectuals in the west.

I do not mean to disparage ISKCON, but I do disapprove some of their translation in regards to terming SadhaaShiva to be a demi-god. and sri aadhishankara bagavathpaada to be a mayavaadi. (that to an extent reflects lack of maturity on their part.)

I do disapprove some of their translation in regards to termingSadhaaShiva to be a demi-god. and sri aadhishankara bagavathpaada to be
a mayavaadi. (that to an extent reflects lack of maturity on their part.)
__________________________________________________
VERY PRECISELY.In another Message Board We 3 are telling them to post messages with a little more maturity

I guess that makes 5 of us. I also have taken in a great deal of information from the ISKCON. If it weren't for the works of Srila Prabhupada this westerner would probably still be the atheist he used to be.

I would not be too concerned about what ISKCON members say about other sects. If that is the way they have seen it, they have every right to explore their religion how they will. If they try to pressure you into seeing it their way, then make them prove their case. It is my impression that Hari Krishnas are very polite people, and I'm certain that they are not intending to cause offense. You may just be experiencing misunderstandings.

(Dr. Ninad I apologize for pushing the topic of course.)

In response to Dr. Ninad's post, I too have never experienced Paramananda. I have experienced intense feelings of love before; love that exists between me and my family, between myself and my significant other of 4 years, and have felt a great deal of comfort from my use of bhakti. I can only assume as you have done that Paramananda would greatly humble the other three.

When this thought first came to me that there is the possibility of such extreme ecstacy, my initial thought was that this kind of love would feel good. Though I did so innocently, I became convinced that I would use bhakti to obtain this incredible feeling. It wasn't until just a few months ago when I had this moment of clarity...

What I was doing was worse then effortless. A person cannot practice bhakti marg for the purpose of achieving ecstacy; it is totally impossible. Bhakti is love, and love is a shared experience and is not the means of achieving an end. I was looking for an end. I wanted to know that supreme pleasure that Sri Krishna spoke of.

One thing Sri Krishna spoke of that I did not take much to heart is that bhakti can only exist without purpose. I realize now that Sri Krishna was right; you can't love something in order to gain something. Love, for anything but the sake of love, is lust.

I feel that this is very important when a person approaches bhakti. If the person learns that by chanting "Hari Krishna, Hari Rama..." they will begin to gain ecstacy, they have fallen into ignorance. What they will recieve is psychosomatic pleasure (meaning the mind will trick the body into thinking it has found devotion.) From this a the person may continue for any amount of time thinking that they have found this resevoir of pleasure, when in reality they found nothing but self-induced pleasure.

True bhakti exists when a person knows that devotion to God is done because, as some say, "love makes the world go round." A true devotee sees his/her devotion as being the natural state- the soul of their existence. True devotion is done for it's own sake.

Om hari,
Andrew

p.s.- Feel free to call me Andrew or Andy. If I had known Jnani would be my screen name, I would have picked another. It feels rather impersonal.

Dear Suzy and Andy,
It was nice knowing the Devotional way of Suzy which effectively and acceptably blends the various ways together to make her daily Life as much dedicated and happy as possible.
Karma can't be avoided so long as the inevitable responsibilities of Life exist and may persist even after one has fulfilled all those responsibilities.i,personally,don't desire in anyway,to be labeled as following one path in particular.After all,the Philosophical teachings have to be put into practice rather than disputing over them.
It is always in the interest of a common man,ney,it is his right and duty to make his life as joyous and happy as possible,according to his knowledge and means.When i said "Suzy has a SUBSTANCE in her statement" i meant all this.
Andy,Love is the essence of Bhakti.One can't worship God unless he loves Him and one
can't worship his Work unless he loves the work.
Devotion to the God and to the assigned work without any expectation is what is Bhakti.
i would like to put forth a simple equation.(May be, some one on Board, is waiting for it-humor me please!)
A Quantum of Work divided by a more or same Quantum of Expectation = 1 or less than 1 while
A Quantum of Work divided by 0 Expectation =Infinity and Infinity is the God supreme
This is my view but no controversies please!
In my previous post i had quoted Saint Tukaram.The Verse 2 ends with-"now I survive only for Philanthropy".He has nowhere stated that there is nothing else to do now(even after the Realisation of the Almighty).
He further goes on to say:
The real worshipper performs all the activities
of worldly Life,just as a Lotus,remaining in water
but remains untouched by water.
He who is kind towards all created Beings,
is alone capable of being merged in Paramatma.
Tukaram Gatha 3780 2,3
The essence of Gita"Intense Devotion-Bhakti-with
desireless Action dedicated to the Paraeshwar is conveyed by:
1. Mamamnusmara Yuddhachya Gita 8-7
Remember Me and Fight.
2.Yoginamapi sarvesham madbhatenantaratmana
Shraddhawanbhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo mataha
Gita 6-47
Even among the Karma Yogis,one who is Devoted to Me with Faith is the most Excellent.

3. Gita 18-46 can be better interpreted thus:
By performing actions desirelessly,according to
one's own status in life,a person performs a sort of Devotion of that Parmeshwar,who dwells in all created beings.
The definite injunction of the Blessed Lord to Arjun was: "FIGHT"!
The Doctrine of Gita has come into existence only in order to explain why a wise man must perform the assigned duty without expecting the fruits there of and why should he perform them remembering Him always.This in itself is WORSHIP.
When in my earlier post i said"i am a common man with a common understanding of dedication to the God and my profession" i meant this.
Samarth Ramdas Swami,a contemporary of Saint Tukaram,was a Great advocator of this doctrine of establishing harmony between the power of Karma and redeeming power of Bhakti. He says:
Strength lies in activity,
Strength will be his who is Active.
But in such a man there must be,
The Seat of the Blessed Lord.
Dasbodh 20-4-26
Both of these Saints worked tirelessly,just about 375 years ago.One emphasised the importance of Bhakti and the other established a most practical blend of Bhakti and Karma to give the necessary Strength-Shakti to the half-dead society during the atrocious Mohammedan rule.
It is my firm conviction,ney it is a proven fact,that had it not been for these Great Saints and many alike and that too exactly at those times,when their presence was most needed,we would not have been on this Board today to discuss Hinduism .
Yada yada hi Dharmyasa----- Gita4-7-- is
an Absolute Truth.

OM-TAT-SAT

Dear Dr.Rajgopalan,
i definitely do agree with you that Faith is
an integral part of Bhakti.
In your interpretation of Gita 7-21...namely
Yo yo Yam yam tanu Bhataha....you have said
"Encourage mountain like Faith".The word'Achalam'
is used to mean"Steady" the Faith.
'chalam'is whatis mobile or unsteady and Achalam
is what is steady,and although Achalam is sometimes used to describe a mountain, the meaning of "Achalam Shraddham" is steady the Faith
as far as this verse of Gita is concerned.
i am in no way proficient in Sanskrit.i have
taken the help of various available treatises on Gita and concluded as quoted afore.
You have rightly said that Faith forms an essential part of Bhakti ;in fact they are intricately interwoven in each other and can't be seperated.
A Worship with Faith is Bhakti.Neither a worship without Faith is Bhakti nor mere Faith
without worship is Bhakti.And after all,Faith emerges from Love and they too go hand in hand.
So we may eventually say that"A desireless Worship of the God Almighty with Faith and Love is Bhakti."
Anjalisthani pushpani vasayanti kardwayam
ie.Flowers in folded hands make both the palms Fragrant.
If one draws a corollary,then the flowers in the folded hands are Faith and Love making the left palm (Worship) and the right hand(Parameshwar)equally fragrant and thereby constituting Bhakti leading to that final Unison with the Almighty-- The Jiva Shiva Eikya.

OM-TAT-SAT

Nowhere in Hinduism it says that Karma should be avoided.

What should be avoided is the attachment to the fruits of karma.

Do all the karma you may. It is the attachment to the fruits of karma only that brings about all the aberration.

BHAKTI indeed makes the core of any effort toward spiritual enlightenment. BHAKTI means “devotion to ethical ideals.”

ETHICS means “contemplation of optimum survival.”

SURVIVAL means “continual creation.”

To a BHAKTA “Rama,” “Krishna,” “Kali,” etc. are representation of those ethical ideals that he or she is devoted to.

In the Trinity of “Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh,” Vishnu represents the principle of SURVIVAL or “continual creation.”

CREATION, as it applies to the SPIRIT, means “creation on a KNOWING basis.” The physical universe is that aspect of BRAHMAM, which is a “creation on an automatic basis.”

As the spirit becomes attached to its creation, it starts to lose its control over that creation. That creation becomes more and more UNKNOWING (automatic) and appears as the EGO. Ego is the identification of the self with what it is creating on an UNKNOWING (automatic) basis.

I shall explain this further as the questions develop.

Dear Dr.Tulpule,---I am posting the meaning of A-calam from Sir Monier-Williams-Sanskrit>>English On-Line Dictionary.Sir.Monier -William's dictionary is very extensive and considered as very authentic among Indologists.While writing Sanskrit in Roman letters,(On-Line)they follow what is called Harvard-Kyoto convention considered to be better than ITARAN convention and in the Printed dictionary they follow "Diacritical Markings".In this convention 1st "Cha" is written as "c" and 2nd "ccha" is written as "Ch".I have "copied" and "Pasted" without any "Editing"
__________________________________________________

a-cala

Entry:-acala

Meaning:-mf(%{A})n. not moving , immovable ; m. a mountain , rock ; a bolt or pin ; the number seven ; N. of S3iva and of the first of the nine
deified persons , called `" white Balas "' among the Jainas ; of a Devarshi VP. ; (%{A}) f. the earth ; one of the ten degrees which are to
be ascended by a Bodhisattva before becoming a Buddha.
__________________________________________________
I deliberately used "Mountain like" to emphasise the Zraddha-ofcourse as you have mentioned there are names of Mountains like -Vekata Achalam (Venkata Adhri)-Hima Acchalam(Hima Adhri)-Bhadra Achalam-Aruna Achalam-Simha Achalam etc-with kind regards,-SSR.

"A desireless Worship of the God Almighty with Faith and Love is Bhakti."
_______________________________________________________________
Perfectly Right.

Pardon me, but aren't we all explaining things that need no explanation & that which can't be explained ?

What more is there in bhakthi to discuss than What Devarshi Sri Naradha had said ?

Being new to the forun, I may not be seeing the same things as you all, But talking about bhakthi is like talking about breathing. Am I missing something ?

Pardon me, but aren't we all explaining things that need no explanation & that which can't be explained ?

What more is there in bhakthi to discuss than What Devarshi Sri Naradha had said ?

Being new to the forum, I may not be seeing the same things as you all, But talking about bhakthi is like talking about breathing. Am I missing something ?

Mr. Pundit, I am amazed to read your last post. You took time away from your practice of Bhakti to be in this discussion, didn't you?

I must ask, "What is your purpose for being in this discussion on Bhakti Marg?"

What more is there in bhakthi to discuss than What Devarshi Sri Naradha had said ?
__________________________________________________
It is Right-while sharing what Devarishi Sri.Naradha has said in Bhakthi Yogam,we may also get some new infomations from connected litreature-like Aaranyakams/Upanishads/Sutra Bhashyams etc.Personally I feel all of us are not walking Encyclopedias-atleast I am not-we may share whatever a little we know.Bhakthi is such a a subject there is no end "to know and to share"

dear sri Sundara Rajan,can we say "O!sri.Ramaayanam- I have read and listened 100 times-I am not interested?!.I would love to listen even now from the recordings of sri.Embar Vijaya Ragava Acharya or sri.T.S.Balakrishna Shastri.It is the "Mystery" or "Secret" of Bhakthi!!---

My Dear Pandit,
You are not new to this ongoing discussion on Bhakti Marg.
In one of your initial post,you had stated that you ,sometimes forgot to Breath when you were in a state of Devotion and in your last post you state that discussing about Bhakti is something like discussing about Breathing enabling me to reach to an essential conclusion that Bhakti is Breathing--- That involuntary procees (in Medical Terms)which continues incessantly,without any consious effort ,to keep
all of us Alive,whether we like it or not.
And what a misfortune that people like you and me forget to Breath and forget this Bhakti Marg which is the very essence of Life!!!
Here in lies the importance of not only continuing
a discussion on it but practicing it too.The Society at large,many a times, forgot this very Breathing ,this very Bhakti, making itself "halfdead"(as mentioned in my earlier post)and then came those Great Saints to inculcate the spirit of Breathing ,the spirit of Bhakti,into the Society to make it Alive,Vibrant and full of Vigour.
Why do our Sacred Granthas have to Roar?

Utishthta!Jagrat!
Prapya varan_Nibodhat!!!

Arise! Awake!
Stop not till the Goal is Reached!!!

Because, from time immemorial,our Society,has been found to be lying and sleeping, time and again.The only way to awaken them and to make them Rise was, as always, the "Bhakti Marg" blended finely with "Karma" or Action.This is the only way, a common man can understand and
practice.
Here lies the importance of discussing it, time and again and over and over again.
Pandit,i think,all this can make it easier for you to reach the 'missing link'which you wish to seek.
After all, here is a commoner talking to a Pandit and therefore ,if mistaken i am ,i may be ignored.

OM-TAT-SAT

Dr. Ninad,

What do you mean by being a commoner and then trying to preach like a pundit.

Why is this pretense?

OM-TAT-SAT

Vinaire: You state..."Vishnu represents the principle of survival or continual creation."

My question: Where is the opportunity for creating something that is eternally existing?

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (Bhag. Gita 2.12)

Suzy: The "I" you refer to from B.G. 2.12 refers to the CREATOR and not to the creation. Each atmam is a CREATOR. The atmam is not a created thing. Atmam does not have a beginning or an end.

The idea of "beginning" and "end" relates to TIME, and TIME itself is something created and not "eternal."

Now give me some examples of what you, as atmam, are creating right now. Can you think of some?

Vinaire: Perhaps you misread this verse:...I (God), nor you, (individual souls) nor all these kings, (individual souls.

The atman(individual soul) is a manifestation of God. It is a minute particle of God. It is manifested through the feature of the Brahman aspect of God. Atman has been eternally existing, so there is no possibility of creating it anew. The individual soul creates his physical body by the use of his intellect and mind, based on his contact with the three modes of material nature. Time is only relevant on the material level, it has no place on the transcendental level. I am creating thoughts only in reference to what has already been existing. I cannot have an original thought, because all thoughts originate from God.

Suzy: Brahmam is not an aspect of God. Brahmam is all there is to God. Everything starts from Brahmam. Please see the discussion "What are Vedic truths?"

Brahmam manifests itself as atman. There is no limit to how many ways Brahmam may manifest itself, so there is no limit to the number of atmans.

You are Brahmam manifested. Thoughts that originate from you are the thoughts "originating from God." Who says you cannot have original thoughts?

Atman is not something material. To say that that atman is a "minute particle of God" may be poetic but it is scientifically incorrect. Atman is Brahman manifested and that is all there is to it.

Now Atman can mock itself up in all different ways. But those mock-ups are essentially the considerations generated by the Atman. So you may think yourself to be whatever you may. But that does not negate that fact that you are Brahmam manifested.

Let me repeat again. Atmam (you) is Brahmam manifested. Atmam (you) is NOT something created. What is created is made up of considerations generated by atman (you). Get it?

The mind and the body are created systems. They are created and animated by Atman.

Now give me some examples of what you, as atmam, are creating right now. Can you think of some?

Vinaire: Brahman is the energy with which Krsna creates. It has four aspects: the individual soul: the impersonal, all-pervasive aspect of the Supreme: the Supreme Personality of Godhead: the mahat-tattva, or total material substance.

"The total material substance, called Brahman, is the source of birth, and it is that brahman that I impregnate, making possible the births of all living beings, O son of Bharata." (BG 14.4)

"I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness." (BG 14.27)

"One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman." (BG14.26)

The constitution of Brahman is immortality, imperishability, eternity and happiness. Brahman is the beginning of transcendental realization, Paramatma, the Supersoul, is the middle, the second stage in transcendental realization, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate realization of the Absolute Truth.

To rise to the platform of Brahman is simply to recognize that you are a spiritual entity and have nothing to do with this material world. So brahman realization is simply become aware of your true nature as a spiritual entity.

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: The indestructible, transcendental living entity if called Brahman and his eternal nature is called adhyatma, the self. Actions pertaining to the development of the material bodies of the living entities is called karma, or fruitive activities." (BG 8.3)

"Those whose minds are established in sameness and equanimity have already conquered the conditions of birth and death. They are flawless like Brahman, and thus they are already situated in Brahman." (BG 5.19)

By becoming completely detached from all material activities one can thus situate himself in the brahmajyoti or the different varieties of the Brahman conception which is equal to the Supreme Personality in quality.

This Brahman energy is spiritual. It is called the brahmajyoti. When a portion of this energy is covered by the three modes of nature, it is manifested as the material creation.

God is an individual. We are also individual minute parts of God. Qualitively the same, but not quantively the same.

"The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature." (BG 3.27)

How can I create an original thought? All thoughts must have existed before. Where is the possibility of me creating something that has never existed?

Lance Vinaire-Scientology boil

For far too long we Hindus have been far too relaxed, laidback and laissez faire about the other religionists, (fanatic, ruthless and Founder-Book-crazed) who invaded India and now live among and around us. Christianity and Islam have become the majority, indeed the only religion in so many continents and countries in such a short time, praise be to the sword and the gun.

We gave away large chunks of our motherland, the only land of the Hindus since humanity began, yet the Semitic religionists demand more of our flesh and/or land, they are never satisfied. Now, compared to all this the absurd Vinaire and his founder's Scientology Book must seem very small beer, true.

Remember, they all started with a founder and therefore in a small way: Judeo-Christianity, Islam, Communism, Scientology. The crimes against humanity they have committed and continue to commit are still to be catalogued fully. Scientology lost a court case in the UK regarding brainwashing of young, vulnerable converts. They lost another recently about something else. Even Christians have mostly given up the gun and now use brainwashing/propaganda instead.

The question to ask is why should we lose even one non-Hindu aspirerant newcomer to this Hindu forum who, reading Vinaire's fraudulent stuff of equations, new terms defined in his Scientology founder's image and other such lies and nonsense, upon reading Vinaire humbugs exclaims, "This is the same as mixture of Islam, Christianity and Blusterology in new equations", throws up and clicks away.

The other very important question is, why should Vinaire, the Hubbard's Blusterology missionary, enjoy our hospitality and yet with his officious, offensive words and equations cause any suffering to a Hindu? Vinaire says until he exposed himself to Scientology he knew nothing, he still knows nothing.

I know we do not exclude anyone, therefore I propose that every Vinaire message- and he writes more in one day than most of us do in a year - every such post should carry a faith warning: Beware Vinaire, a Scientology cultist.
None of the organised religions give a platform to fifth-columnists.

Suzy,
Here is some wisdom from the Upanishads (courtesy of Dr. SSR)

OM----Poornamadhaha----Poornamidham----Poornaat----Poornamudhachyate---Poornasya----Poornamaadhaaya ----Poornameva----Vazishyate<<
__________________________________________________
Om=(salutations to God)----Idham =this is---- Poornam =whole(Brahmam-the Supreme Spirit)---Adaha =that is----Poornam =Whole(Brahmam-the Supreme
Spirit) ----Poornaath =from whole---- Poornamudhacchayate =emanates Whole----Poornasya =from whole----Poornamadhaaya = if whole is taken
out----Poornameva =whole alone----Vazishyate =remains------------------------------------------
To Sum Up:-The whole Universe is the manifestation of the Supreme Spirit(BRAHMAM). Every bit of the Universe is BRAHMAM (GOD) only.

Here is an attempt to clarify the various terms used in Hinduism.

BRAHMAM as STATIC means, very precisely, the following:

"An actuality of no mass, no motion, no wavelength, no location in space or in time. This is a true static. Formerly, a static was defined only as a motionless object. This definition is not adequate, since a state of rest for an object is attained only by an equilibrium of forces; and all objects have in themselves, if only at a molecular level, motion, and exist in space, which is itself an integral portion of motion. Hence here we are dealing with a higher-level static, a life static, with the ability to postulate and perceive, to make conclusions, decisions and resolutions."

BRAHMAM (Static) + decision to BE = ATMAM

Thus, unmanifested, IT is BRAHMAM.
And, manifested, IT is ATMAM.

"BEING" simply means "being manifested" ... changing from potential to actual.

"BEING" does not mean "becoming some identity." There is no identity to BECOME at this point.

Now, when BRAHMAM is manifested as ATMAM we are talking about a whole dimension from PARMATMAM to JIVATMAM. It is a scale of ATMAM:

Jiten,

It appears to me that you are afraid to be brain-washed by me. That is an interesting idea.

Does maya brainwash? Is Brahmam behind it? The whole effort here is how to overcome the effect of maya. Do you have anything against that?

Be self-determined, my friend. And trust yourself.

Because the alternative is that you succumb to your paranoia and end up in some psychiatric ward somewhere in England.

I don't wish the latter to happen to you.

Vinaire: Perhaps I have not clarified the meaning of some of the words I use:

God-Krsna, Supreme Personality of Godhead, creator, maintainer and annihilator of the universes.

Paramatma-the Supersoul; the localized aspect of the Supreme Lord; the indwelling witness and guide who accompanies every conditioned soul.

Brahman-name for the multifarious energies of Krsna.

Jivatma-the eternal individual soul.

You state: To sum it up--The whole universe is the manifestation of the Supreme Spirit Brahman. Every bit of the universe is Brahman (God) only.

As I said, the material universes are created by Krsna through the use of His energy called Brahman.

You state: Brahman is static.

If at anytime the energy of Brahman becomes static, then how can it create, maintain, or annihilate? Where is the possibility of rest for this energy, when it is the action of this energy the keeps creation intact?

You state: Being does not mean 'becoming some identity'. There is no identity to become at this point.

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." (BG 15.7)

In this verse the identity of the living being is cleary given. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditioned life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented, or has his own identity eternally.

You state: The jivatman can only react, not create, so it functions like a machine.

The jivatman reacts to his present and previous karma. The jivatman is directing himself at every moment to the next body he will inhabit by his words, thoughts and deeds.

You state: The jivatman is devoid of all self-determination.

Then where is the freewill of the jivatman that is his inherent quality by dent of him being a fragment of the Absolute freewill? Self-determination is simply the ability of act by the dictates of one's desires.

You state: The level of brahman described in BG 14.26 means full awareness of oneself as the source of all creation and total cause over it.

You have not yet realized that you are the manifested, not the manifestor. At no time can the jivatman ever rise to the level of Krsna. The jivatman is only a minute fragment of the Supreme, with limited facilities which function only in the realm of his proclivity towards sense gratification or self-realization.

You state: Only that which is created can be destroyed. Matter,energy, space and time are created by Brahman and can therefore be destroyed.

This material world is a temporary manifestation of one of the energies of the Lord. When these twenty-four elements are withdrawn they are again wound up into Krsna. There is no question of destruction, only annihilation by assimulation.

In the Vedic literatures the living entity is called jivatma and Brahman. Impersonalist commentators on the Bhagavad Gita unreasonably assume that Brahman takes the form of the jivatma in the material world. The fragment of God, the living entity, may fall down into the material world, but the Supreme Lord never falls down. Therefore the assumption that the Supreme Brahman assumes the form of jivatma is not acceptable. It is important to remember that in Vedic literatures, Brahman from whom the living entity is manifested, is distinguished from Parabrahman, the Supreme Lord.

Dear Suzy,

I think we are trying to chew too much at a time. Let me try to understand what you are saying a little bit at a time.

I have seen this term Parabrahman used by others on this board. But I do not quite understand its relationship to Brahmam.

Could you please explain to me the similarities and differences between these two realities "Parabrahman" and "Brahman"?

Thank you.

Can Dr. SSR help here in clarifying the similarities and differences between these two realities "Parabrahman" and "Brahman"?

Thank you.

Dr.Tulphuleji,There is no communiction between us for quite some time.Sri.Madhusudhana Saraswathi says "Bhakthyartham Kalpitham Dvaitham -Advaithaathapi Sundaram".(I am a very devout follower of Acharya sri.Sankara.)sri Saraswathi says "The meaning/or the end goal of Bhakthi(the eternal bliss =Aanandam) is created by Dvaitham only-so it is even more beautiful than Advaitham"-In spite of Upanishad Vaakyams"Tat tvam asi"-"Aham Brahma Asmi" and all that-only when you see LOrd.Nrsimha at a very high pedastal- "Bhakthi" is possible.It is why saint sri.Thyagaraja(by family traditions an Advaithin)sang "Dvaithamu Sukamaa-Advaithamu Sukamaa?"-and finally concludes Dvaitham is Sukam(very pleasant).I thought I could listen from you-the Bhakthi litreature(in Marathi-translated into English) of Satguru.Sri.Naamdev ji and Satguru sri.Tukaaram ji and other Bhaagavatha Utthamaas and devotees of sri.Pandari Nath Ji

Vinaire: On the Absolute level, or transcendental level, there is no duality. Everything is considered as equal to another thing. Krsna's energies and paraphenalia, are all considered the same as Krsna Himself. Krsna calls His multifarious energies Brahman.

The individual soul, the impersonal, all-pervasive feature of the Lord (brahmajyoti or effulgence from the body of Krsna), the total material substance, and Krsna the source of these energies are all called Brahman.

For purposes of distinguishing Krsna as the creator of these energies, He is called Parabrahman. (Para means transcendental).

Suzy: Do you fully understand what the transcendental level means?

The transcendental level is beyond matter, energy, space, and time. This level is beyond even the reflection of matter, energy, space, and time in thought. So there is no duality at this level and there is no multiplicity of things either. There is no energy and paraphernalia at this level that you can describe. All you can say is that it is TOTAL POTENTIALITY because all things proceed from it. This is what is termed Parabrahman or Brahmam (Static). You may call this level Krsna if you wish, but keep in mind we are not talking about any form or body here. This level is beyond all forms and bodies.

What you are calling “Brahman” (with ‘n’ as the ending) is the POTENTIALITY to create all that exists. That is all.

What we have at this level is ZERO in terms of manifestation, and INFINITY in terms of potentiality.

Let me know if you have any questions on all this.

Dear Vinnaire,
It is not possible for me to be on the Board daily
though i would have loved to do so, and hence the delay in replying your post.
i don't think it is wrong on anyone's part to call himself a commoner when a common man,indeed he is.
The "Preaching" part of your letter is the way you look at it.i look at it as an exchange of views and ideas of all the members of this forum
as far as the discussion on Bhakti Marg is conerned,which naively enough, you have diverted to suit your ideologies and to preach them.
The concluding sentence of my last post was meant to be humble and submissive, as is the Indian custom, after any discussion.There was never an iota of pretendence in it but then if one is tuned to be suspicious about everything then i can't help it .
But remember this verse from Gita....
Sanshayatma Vinashyate
A suspicious Soul is bound to perish

i don't know what your Scientology is but if it is something similar to "Tark Shaastra" the Science of reasoning or "Buddhiwad" then let me tell you in very outright terms that the Existence of God or His Form or His nature is not something which needs to be proved but is to be experienced and therefore this ongoing attempt to discuss Bhakti Marg and to pratice it.
Swami Vivekanand in one of his discussions proved
what you are trying to do,in a matter of five minutes by clock and furher added"Buddhiwad is a play of words.The Almighty God is a subject of Faith and Faith emerges only out of His Blessings.One has to wait patiently."

May the God Almighty Bless you!


OM-TAT-SAT

Dear Vinnaire,
It is not possible for me to be on the Board daily
though i would have loved to do so, and hence the delay in replying your post.
i don't think it is wrong on anyone's part to call himself a commoner when a common man,indeed he is.
The "Preaching" part of your letter is the way you look at it.i look at it as an exchange of views and ideas of all the members of this forum
as far as the discussion on Bhakti Marg is conerned,which naively enough, you have diverted to suit your ideologies and to preach them.
The concluding sentence of my last post was meant to be humble and submissive, as is the Indian custom, after any discussion.There was never an iota of pretendence in it but then if one is tuned to be suspicious about everything then i can't help it .
But remember this verse from Gita....
Sanshayatma Vinashyate
A suspicious Soul is bound to perish

i don't know what your Scientology is but if it is something similar to "Tark Shaastra" the Science of reasoning or "Buddhiwad" then let me tell you in very outright terms that the Existence of God or His Form or His nature is not something which needs to be proved but is to be experienced and therefore this ongoing attempt to discuss Bhakti Marg and to pratice it.
Swami Vivekanand in one of his discussions proved
what you are trying to do,in a matter of five minutes by clock and furher added"Buddhiwad is a play of words.The Almighty God is a subject of Faith and Faith emerges only out of His Blessings.One has to wait patiently."

May the God Almighty Bless you!


OM-TAT-SAT

Dear Dr.Rajgopalan,
In the opening address of your last post the specific word 'Ji'has embarassed me--it has embaressed me a lot.i think 'Ninad' or 'Dr.Ninad' should easily suffice the needs.
As mentioned in the post to Shri.Vinnaire,i can't be present on the Board daily even when i sincerely wish and hence the break.The first post of mine,after this break, was mailed to "Hindu Vision for the Millenium"and contains the thoughts which just creeped in my mind.We shall discuss about it at length as and when time permits.
The very idea behind opening the Topic on Bhakti Marg,i think,is by now quite clear.i enjoyed every moment of the Discussion .It was indeed a pleasure sharing the views of all and has certainly enriched my knowledge.
i am not really well versed with the vast Knowledge elaborated in the Vedas,the Upanishads
and other Sacred Texts however i keep on reading
either the commentaries on them or related topics which regularly appear in many Religious Magazines,out of inquisitiveness and eagerness
to know a little.
The Bhagvat Gita ofcourse has always been a source of inspiration as is the case with the masses in general.But, what i hold in Great Esteem
is the work of Saints who,in the most simplified way,have made the doors of this Sacred and vast treasure open to all sections of our Society and
have always been great advocators of Bhakti Marg blended with Karma.It is therefore not surprising
that the largest no of followers belong to this Path of "Devotion".
i think that after such a lively and fuitful discussion, for quite a long period ,we may conclude it here presently to positively meet again.

Let's rejoice with the tune of Devotion,
And enlighten this World with the Lamp
of Knowledge.

Sant Namdeo.

Contentded I am not,in the Philosophy of Advait,
The Sweetness of thy Feet is what I relish.

Sant Tukaram.

Neither do I desire worldly riches,
Nor is the wish of birth again.
With pride and knowledge shouldn't my mind bloat
Let it follow the Path to Devote.
This is what I ask from Thee;This is what I
ask from Thee.

Sant Ramdas Swami.

Some of the translated Verses have been reproduced
and some are my translations.Every Language has it's own Beuty and therefore translated verses may not enjoy the same sweetness however the core of the matter is equally sweet and appealing.

OM-TAT-SAT

Dear Dr.Rajgopalan,
In the opening address of your last post the specific word 'Ji'has embarassed me--it has embaressed me a lot.i think 'Ninad' or 'Dr.Ninad' should easily suffice the needs.
As mentioned in the post to Shri.Vinnaire,i can't be present on the Board daily even when i sincerely wish and hence the break.The first post of mine,after this break, was mailed to "Hindu Vision for the Millenium"and contains the thoughts which just creeped in my mind.We shall discuss about it at length as and when time permits.
The very idea behind opening the Topic on Bhakti Marg,i think,is by now quite clear.i enjoyed every moment of the Discussion .It was indeed a pleasure sharing the views of all and has certainly enriched my knowledge.
i am not really well versed with the vast Knowledge elaborated in the Vedas,the Upanishads
and other Sacred Texts however i keep on reading
either the commentaries on them or related topics which regularly appear in many Religious Magazines,out of inquisitiveness and eagerness
to know a little.
The Bhagvat Gita ofcourse has always been a source of inspiration as is the case with the masses in general.But, what i hold in Great Esteem
is the work of Saints who,in the most simplified way,have made the doors of this Sacred and vast treasure open to all sections of our Society and
have always been great advocators of Bhakti Marg blended with Karma.It is therefore not surprising
that the largest no of followers belong to this Path of "Devotion".
i think that after such a lively and fuitful discussion, for quite a long period ,we may conclude it here presently to positively meet again.

Let's rejoice with the tune of Devotion,
And enlighten this World with the Lamp
of Knowledge.

Sant Namdeo.

Contentded I am not,in the Philosophy of Advait,
The Sweetness of thy Feet is what I relish.

Sant Tukaram.

Neither do I desire worldly riches,
Nor is the wish of birth again.
With pride and knowledge shouldn't my mind bloat
Let it follow the Path to Devote.
This is what I ask from Thee;This is what I
ask from Thee.

Sant Ramdas Swami.

Some of the translated Verses have been reproduced
and some are my translations.Every Language has it's own Beuty and therefore translated verses may not enjoy the same sweetness however the core of the matter is equally sweet and appealing.

OM-TAT-SAT

Dear Dr. Ninad,

I too believe that we are in this forum simply to exchange viewpoints. The reason I picked up on this "commoner" thing is that you have insisted on having a commoner viewpoint several times. It appears to me that you are protesting some other viewpoint without verbalizing it.

I am just curious what kind of a viewpoint would not be a commoner viewpoint?

I just want to have everything in open here in order to understand it fully.

Dear Dr.Rajgopalan,
In the opening address of your last post the specific word 'Ji'has embarassed me--it has embaressed me a lot.i think 'Ninad' or 'Dr.Ninad' should easily suffice the needs.
As mentioned in the post to Shri.Vinnaire,i can't be present on the Board daily even when i sincerely wish and hence the break.The first post of mine,after this break, was mailed to "Hindu Vision for the Millenium"and contains the thoughts which just creeped in my mind.We shall discuss about it at length as and when time permits.
The very idea behind opening the Topic on Bhakti Marg,i think,is by now quite clear.i enjoyed every moment of the Discussion .It was indeed a pleasure sharing the views of all and has certainly enriched my knowledge.
i am not really well versed with the vast Knowledge elaborated in the Vedas,the Upanishads
and other Sacred Texts however i keep on reading
either the commentaries on them or related topics which regularly appear in many Religious Magazines,out of inquisitiveness and eagerness
to know a little.
The Bhagvat Gita ofcourse has always been a source of inspiration as is the case with the masses in general.But, what i hold in Great Esteem
is the work of Saints who,in the most simplified way,have made the doors of this Sacred and vast treasure open to all sections of our Society and
have always been great advocators of Bhakti Marg blended with Karma.It is therefore not surprising
that the largest no of followers belong to this Path of "Devotion".
i think that after such a lively and fuitful discussion, for quite a long period ,we may conclude it here presently to positively meet again.

Let's rejoice with the tune of Devotion,
And enlighten this World with the Lamp
of Knowledge.

Sant Namdeo.

Contentded I am not,in the Philosophy of Advait,
The Sweetness of thy Feet is what I relish.

Sant Tukaram.

Neither do I desire worldly riches,
Nor is the wish of birth again.
With pride and knowledge shouldn't my mind bloat
Let it follow the Path to Devote.
This is what I ask from Thee;This is what I
ask from Thee.

Sant Ramdas Swami.

Some of the translated Verses have been reproduced
and some are my translations.Every Language has it's own Beuty and therefore translated verses may not enjoy the same sweetness however the core of the matter is equally sweet and appealing.

OM-TAT-SAT

Vinaire: Yes I know what transcendental means. Transcendental means beyond the scope of our material senses. Imperfect senses are one of the four defects of the material body, so we cannot understand transcendental knowledge, with blunt material senses. We must take information about trancendence from authoritive sources and follow their instructions to experience this transcendence for ourselves.

All the material things we see are composed of the primary five elements, earth, air,fire, water and ether touched by the glance of the Supreme Lord, actualized through His repository of energy called Brahman. These material worlds are a product of the inferior energy of the Lord. Beyond this material manifestation is another nature:

"Krsna, who is known as Govinda, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He has a transcendental form of eternal bliss and knowledge. He is the origin of all and the causes of all causes." (Brahma Samhita 5.1)

"He does not have a bodily form like that of an ordinary living entity: He has a transcendental form of bliss and knowledge. His senses are all transcendental. Nothing is greater than Him or equal to Him. His potencies are multifarious, such as cognitive, will and active potency."
(Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8)

"The Supreme Lord is the ultimate creator of the universe. He knows the purpose of the universe. He is the Supersoul, the Lord in the heart of every living being. He is all-knowing, and is the greatest philosopher. He knows past, present and future. He has all excellencies and good qualities. He is the master of the material energy (pradhana), the living beings, (jiva-sakti, ksetrajana) and the internal, spiritual energy know as (cit-sakti, guna). He alone is the cause of liberation from the cycle of repeated birth and death (samsara) and the bondage of ignorance.
(Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.16)

Here is an description of the universe:

Narakalokas-the twenty eight hellish planets.
(at the bottom of the material universes)
above this
Fourteen planetary systems containing millions and millions of planets within millions and millions of universes.
(this also includes the planets we refer to as heaven. (Satyloka or Brahmaloka, Tapas, or Janas, etc. earth (Bhur) is located between the sixth and seventh planetary system.)
above this
209,600,000 miles above the highest heavenly planet are located the Vaikuntha Planets. This is the realm of transcendence. This is called the spiritual sky. Within this spiritual sky are millions of Vaikuntha Planets. The abode of Krsna is located here and is called Goloka Vrndavana.

"I worship that transcendental seat, known as Svetadvipa where as loving consorts the Laksmis in ther unalloyed spritual essence practice the amourous service of the Supreme Lord Krsna as their only lover: Where every tree is a transcendental purpose tree; where the soil is the purpose gem, all water is nectar, every word is a song, every gait is a dance, the flute is the favorite attendant, effulgence is full of transcendental bliss and the supreme spiritual entities are all enjoyable and tasty, where numberless milk cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk; where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for a space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a few self-realized souls in this world."
(Brahma samhita 56)

If as you say, "in the transcendental world there is no activity", then how did the universe come about? Did the universe just happen? Is there no intelligence behind it? How would you explain the volumous writings by great sages who give evidence to the existence of activities on the transcendental level?

Vinaire: Yes I know what transcendental means. Transcendental means beyond the scope of our material senses. Imperfect senses are one of the four defects of the material body, so we cannot understand transcendental knowledge, with blunt material senses. We must take information about trancendence from authoritive sources and follow their instructions to experience this transcendence for ourselves.

All the material things we see are composed of the primary five elements, earth, air,fire, water and ether touched by the glance of the Supreme Lord, actualized through His repository of energy called Brahman. These material worlds are a product of the inferior energy of the Lord. Beyond this material manifestation is another nature:

"Krsna, who is known as Govinda, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He has a transcendental form of eternal bliss and knowledge. He is the origin of all and the causes of all causes." (Brahma Samhita 5.1)

"He does not have a bodily form like that of an ordinary living entity: He has a transcendental form of bliss and knowledge. His senses are all transcendental. Nothing is greater than Him or equal to Him. His potencies are multifarious, such as cognitive, will and active potency."
(Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8)

"The Supreme Lord is the ultimate creator of the universe. He knows the purpose of the universe. He is the Supersoul, the Lord in the heart of every living being. He is all-knowing, and is the greatest philosopher. He knows past, present and future. He has all excellencies and good qualities. He is the master of the material energy (pradhana), the living beings, (jiva-sakti, ksetrajana) and the internal, spiritual energy know as (cit-sakti, guna). He alone is the cause of liberation from the cycle of repeated birth and death (samsara) and the bondage of ignorance.
(Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.16)

Here is an description of the universe:

Narakalokas-the twenty eight hellish planets.
(at the bottom of the material universes)
above this
Fourteen planetary systems containing millions and millions of planets within millions and millions of universes.
(this also includes the planets we refer to as heaven. (Satyloka or Brahmaloka, Tapas, or Janas, etc. earth (Bhur) is located between the sixth and seventh planetary system.)
above this
209,600,000 miles above the highest heavenly planet are located the Vaikuntha Planets. This is the realm of transcendence. This is called the spiritual sky. Within this spiritual sky are millions of Vaikuntha Planets. The abode of Krsna is located here and is called Goloka Vrndavana.

"I worship that transcendental seat, known as Svetadvipa where as loving consorts the Laksmis in ther unalloyed spritual essence practice the amourous service of the Supreme Lord Krsna as their only lover: Where every tree is a transcendental purpose tree; where the soil is the purpose gem, all water is nectar, every word is a song, every gait is a dance, the flute is the favorite attendant, effulgence is full of transcendental bliss and the supreme spiritual entities are all enjoyable and tasty, where numberless milk cows always emit transcendental oceans of milk; where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for a space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a few self-realized souls in this world."
(Brahma samhita 56)

If as you say, "in the transcendental world there is no activity", then how did the universe come about? Did the universe just happen? Is there no intelligence behind it? How would you explain the volumous writings by great sages who give evidence to the existence of activities on the transcendental level?

Suzy,

You quoted: "Krsna, who is known as Govinda, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He has a transcendental form of eternal bliss and knowledge. He is the origin of all and the causes of all causes." (Brahma Samhita 5.1)

When you talk about transcendental form of eternal bliss and knowledge, that is still a form. Brahmam (Static) is beyond all forms. It is even beyond the transcendental form of eternal bliss and knowledge.

You are talking about "Krsna, who is known as Govinda, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.". This would be Brahman manifested, and NOT Brahmam (Static) which is unmanifested.

Dr.Ninad,I was in Delhi(in Govt.of India Service for full 20 years(1978-1998).In Delhi the practice is even Parents would address their children with the suffix "Ji"only."Habits die hard".I will also be able to interact in this board only once a day-say after 7.00.P.M.(EST)/or occasionally twice a day.Since my daughter/Son-in-law and Son-all are professionals(bread-winners of the family)-they will give me a short time when they don't need the computer.your translations of sant.sri.Ramdas Swami/sri.Tukaaram swami/and sri.Namdev Swami were very sweet.Sant sri.Tukaram swami seems to have the same feelings of Sant.sri.Thyagaraja swami.I was a regular visitor(i.e.once or twice a week) to Sant.Namdev swami temple in Lodhi Road, Delhi and Temples in Poona(while I was in Pimpri(1958-1961)

Vinaire: Krsna said He is the compiler of the eighteen Puranas, the four original Vedas, the one hundred eight Upanisads, the Srimad Bhagavatam, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Mahabharata. In essence, the complete Vedanta Sutra.

From the absolute stance you have taken in regards to your description of Brahman, it appears to me that you have knowledge outside of what Krsna gives.

I have explained Brahman to you a number of times, using a few excerpts from these and other Vedic literatures, based on the description of Brahman given by Krsna in these literatures. I could continue indefinitely to do this because I have every piece of Vedic literature that was transcribed into English by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I also have volumes of books written by other devotees of Krsna. I have read all these literatures numerous times and they all concur on the description of Brahman.

I was under the assumption that I have repeated to you exactly what has been given by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and the other devotees of Krsna. They all claim to have repeated exactly what has been given by Krsna.

Now, it has occured to me that I have not had an opportunity to read the materials you have read. Apparently these materials are far more authoritive than the Vedanta Sutra.

As you can see, I have a passion for reading spiritual material. Would you please be kind enough to share that material that you have privy to with me, so that I might have an opportunity to fully understand your description of Brahman.

Suzy:

Please read my earlier posts on this subject. Rhe references are there. Nothing I have said invaidates what you are saying.

All you need to do is understand the two words "manifested" and "unmanifested."

Humbly,
Vinaire

Dear Vinnaire,
Since, in my last post addressed to Dr.Rajgopal, i
intented to conlude this discussion on Bhakti Marg
i was not very keen on replying to your post.
However, suspicious as you are about everything,
i deemed it fit to remove the doubts in your mind.
1.The sense of the word commoner, which i used ,
is a person not well versed in a particular Faculty of life ie i am a commoner as far the immense knowledge of Vedic Dharma is concerned.
i am a commoner as far as scientology is concerned while you are a commoner as far as Medical Science is concerned and so on so forth.
2. i don't know, why that word-protest-need to be framed by you.Unnecessary defiance and protest is your way not mine.However,since i later realised your reason behind framing that word,
i am sorry to disappoint you completely.

Vinnaire, you have done enough damage to this ongoing discussion on Bhakti Marg by directing it
to suit your ideologies of reasoning,play of words
and war of sentences.i appreciate your vocabulary,
intelligence and power of discussion but i deplore your suspicious nature and your continuous defiance of whatever anyone else says.
Is it always essential that you enter in each and every discussion on the Board?You can in fact, many a times,be a passive listener and still enjoy every moment of it.
Is it always essential to try to bring that God Almighty on your dry and speculative platform of scientology?
Can you not try to experience Him rather than making Him an Object of your "Tark Shastra"
"Buddhiwad" or scientology?
i know ,you will be more than happy to answer these questions but i don't seek any answers from you.Never the less,it is my humble request to you,to ask these questions to yourself,analyse them and divert your intelligence and energy towards an attempt to realise Him than discussing Him as an Object.
May the God Almighty Bless you!

OM-TAT-SAT

Jiten said: When there is causeless cessation in the intellect's endless activity,then in that instant there is a step towards understanding the self,i.e. being free of it. This is absolutely correct. This also reminds me of Jiddu Krishnamurti who used to say the same in his talks.

Sri Murali

Like some others, I have learnt -and still learning- from twenty-odd gurus and I suppose J Krishnamurti (or K) was one of the odd ones. I conitnue to attend satsangs under apparently differing teachings, Bodh, Jain etc.

What struck me very strange was his assertion that he owes nothing to any other teachings, he lived almost all of his long life in the west. Good thing he did not claim to have invented meditation, what else is he talking about if not meditation and that there are many paths to the truth?

Tat tvam asi is a bequest from our seers and sages to all humankind, it says it all, millenia before K. The analogy of salt in water (or sugar, to taste) is a simple example that even I could understand as a shoolboy.

Just as I was gearing up to ask some questions, a book written by a young married woman came out, saying she knew from girlhood that her married mother was Krishnamurti's mistress who had had to go through abortions for his name's sake and more such examples of K's criminal hypocrisy.

Of course K moved on to mistresses new but the mother and daughter had seen and experienced enough to expose him for the sake of public good.

This important part of K's shady double-life he owes to his western tradition, for, in our shastras hypocrisy is almost on par with ignorance as the greatest crime. And many of us are allergic to such crimes. He may have given an English construct to truths we are already aware of, in Sanskrit they are nobody's property, least of all of such vile liars and criminal hypocrites as the late J. Krishnamurti.

Roll on the day when all this will be in Sanskrit.

Yes Jiten, Truth is nobody's personal property. Truth is Love and the ego or the limited self cannot step into the domain of Truth or Love, however much it may attempt or pretend.

Namaskar,

I am glad to inform everyone that the new forums are in place now. You will be able to continue on this thread on this forum, but please start any new threads on the new forums.

I appreciate your using the forums, and I hope that you find the new forum software and set up useful.

thank you,

ajay

This is in response to the topic "new forums in place" on another thread by administration.

I must say I did not understand what the above message means and how it affects posting a message that we are used to so far. Don't say that all discussions so far will become redundant once again.

Namaskar,

All it means that the older forums will be preserved and available for viewing.

You can continue with the ongoing discussions on the these pages.

New discussions cannot be created on these older forums, for that you will have to use the new forums, accessible using :

http://www.hindunet.org/forum/

We are hoping that the loss of messages, delay in postings, slowness, machine crashes, etc. will all be significantly reduced with the secong server and this new software.

Please give it a try.

regards,

ajay