I wrote under the discussion on BHAKTI MARG,

BHAKTI indeed makes the core of any effort toward spiritual enlightenment. BHAKTI means “devotion to ethical ideals.”

ETHICS means “contemplation of optimum survival.”

SURVIVAL means “continual creation.”

To a BHAKTA “Rama,” “Krishna,” “Kaali,” etc. are representation of those ethical ideals that he or she is devoted to.

Mr. Chetan Gandhi alluded to such ideals in his recent post under the discussion THE PURAANS AND ME that inspired him while he was growing. Similar ideals inspired me too and I owe a lot to my exposure to Ramayana, Mahabharata, Panchtantra, etc. (in general, the Puraans). At a later stage, my inspiration came from Swami Vivekananda and Swami Chinmayananda. Finally, it all came together during my exposure to Scientology.

In this discussion, I would like to understand:

What ideals is a bhakta of Krishna devoted to?
What ideals is a bhakta of Shiva devoted to?
What ideals is a bhakta of Vishnu devoted to?
What ideals is a bhakta of Ma Kaali devoted to?

Hopefully this discussion may lead to new insights.

Sri Vinaire,

Just like to point out that many people will disagree with your definition of bhakti. I believe bhakti is a devotion to God manifest. If you happen to see Krishna as the embodiment of ethical ideals, bhakti will mean such to you. In my conversations with devotees before (many from the Hare Krishna sect) I would tend to say that not all bhaktas worship ethical ideals.

I will try to amass a response for you after a good night's sleep. I'm afraid I came here a tad too late.

Om hari,
Andrew

Dear Andrew,

It is incorrect to say that Bhakti is a devotion to a mere symbol, or to a mere form. To a Bhakta, that symbol or form must stand for some idea or ideal.

That idea or ideal is what gives that symbol or form a meaning.

What is God? In its most fundamental sense "God" symbolizes the ideal of "Self-determinism." To a member of the Hare Krishna sect, "God" symbolizes the ideal of "Love."

There has to be some sense of ethics behind these ideals even if not verbalized. "Self-determinism" does not mean a license for hurting others arbitrarily. "Love" does not mean irrational attachment to one's errors and fixed ideas.

You need to understand the statement, "devotion to ethical ideals," in its purity. My effort is not to minimize you in any way. I like your way of looking at things without fixed ideas.

I am simply trying to clarify what I assumed to be clear. My mistake!

Om Hari!
Vinaire

You may say that I am a Bhakta of BRAHMAM (Static) because I am devoted completely to "Self-determinism."

Sri Vinaire,

I believe our sharing of ideals has been corrupted by a misunderstanding of words. When you say "devotion to ethical ideals" that statement is computed in my mind as "devotion to moral principles and values."

I know you're intention clearly was to find out what ideals bhaktas see in God, such as love, forgiveness, bliss, assistance, etc. However, I can list all of those as ethical ideals I am devoted to in Krishna.

Perhaps this might give you a better standing of where I'm coming from. Sri Vinaire, it has been brought to my attention that you have children. While I have no concept of being a parent, as I still live with mine, but I can only imagine that your love and devotion to them is quite strong.

But tell me, can you tell me what ethical ideals it is about your children that you are so devoted to? Is it their innocence? Their curiosity? Their love? I'm sure you could add to that list until your fingers went numb. When you ask me to tell you what ideals I am devoted to, you ask me to do something similar. Krishna, the object of my devotion, represents an embodiment of qualities so that I don't tend to look at just one ideal. I hope this makes sense.

If I had to chose an ethical quality though, I suppose I would have to say...

Krishna= patient teaching & loyalty.

Dear Andrew,

You express yourself well. It is correct that the word ETHICS is very much misunderstood. It is confused with morals.

In brief, ETHICS means the highest rationality. It is a very dynamic concept. Compared to it, morals is a static concept. There is a lot of inertia connected with morals. Morals come about as a solution to social problems, but then they continue beyond their times even when those social problems no longer exist.

My thinking is that the very fact that we have different symbolizations in "Krishna," "Vishnu," "Shiva," "Kaali," etc., then they must put emphasis on different aspects of spiriuality as ideals that one is devoted to.

I am interested in looking at those differences more closely.

As far as my children go, my effort has been to bring them up in such a way that they are very self-determined and that they are not afraid at looking at things, and are willing to examine anything when necessity arises.

I have always provided them with a safe and loving environment in which to grow. I have always maintained good communication with them. I have always listened to their questions, however trivial they may appear to me, and answered them in a way so they can understand.

I treat them as intelligent and mature individuals even if in small bodies. (After all they have been around a trillion years or so - but may be a bit dazed from their recent death experience.) They may lack a knowledge of the language and a complete, up-to-date information about things, but I know that they do their best to observe and analyze their environment and communicate their viewpoints to me. I respect that.

Yes, I love them, and without demanding, I get back their love and trust in abundance. But, as I said earlier, my main focus has always been on developing self-determinism in them.